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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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A thought occurs to me that as I recall we never heard of US Airways aircraft going "bump" until all that scary talent from Rio poop steak Drive came on line. 😀 😀

Oh, it happened now and then. Thankfully, not often. The big change is that the media pays a lot more attention to stuff like that these days than they used to (excluding maybe the local paper). Of course, things like youTube spread info in minutes - who was that foreign carrier that clipped the tail of a CRJ @ JFK not too long ago. It was a youTube hit for a while.
Jim
 
Difference being they accomplished that task and to date? You didn't and where I come from money talks and the other stuff walks
Bob, W in TF are you talking about!!!! Why do you jump into conversations you cleary have no business being in? That post made NO SENSE TO THE FLOW OF THE CONVERSATION!!!

I really hate it when you post just to see your avatar come up.
 
A thought occurs to me that as I recall we never heard of US Airways aircraft going "bump" until all that scary talent from Rio poop steak Drive came on line. 😀 😀


The east pilots may not do so well in crowded east coast airports but they're pretty good at landing them in the middle of a river. That and not show up to work drunk. Of course you have the CEO leading by example on the last point.
Wow Bob, you're on a roll tonight. "Poop steak", drunk west pilots, etc. - are you working to get back into the good graces of the east?
 
Bob, W in TF are you talking about!!!! Why do you jump into conversations you cleary have no business being in? That post made NO SENSE TO THE FLOW OF THE CONVERSATION!!!

I really hate it when you post just to see your avatar come up.

So get your own avatar then I can hate seeing yours appear as well. Enjoy.
 
Perhaps you need to stop listening to company hype. Tell me, how many people do you know that were there? I'm betting NONE.

THAT is the difference between you and I and this matter.

Driver B)
You were there? Did you hand her the PA mike, or did she grab a megaphone out of the airplane?

You have no idea how much I wish I had a union that I could trust to tell me the truth. They have purposely created a truth vacuum that the company all too willingly fills.

Deep down, driver, you know that you would prefer that alternative too.
 
The east pilots may not do so well in crowded east coast airports but they're pretty good at landing them in the middle of a river. That and not show up to work drunk. Of course you have the CEO leading by example on the last point.

Yeah, well you kinda need to do it well everywhere everyday. The west just get the airplanes where they're supposed to be safely and reasonably on time without any drama.

Sorry if operating the way we're supposed to bores you, but that's our intention.
 
Yeah, well you kinda need to do it well everywhere everyday. The west just get the airplanes where they're supposed to be safely and reasonably on time without any drama.

Sorry if operating the way we're supposed to bores you, but that's our intention.

One of the things that I see as potentially coming out of this current pilot debacle especially if the Company wins that ALL pilots should be concerned. Believe or don't I read evey post carefully, so some sniping at both sides along the way. However one of the huge negatives in my mind is erosion of the concept/precedent of Pilot in Command Authority. While it's certainly true that she exercised bad judgement by melting down in the boarding area, however the real issue has gotten "lost in the sauce" IMO.

Someone has to be the final authority as whether a plane leaves the gate. Someone with "skin in the game" like say a pilot for instance. For reasons known only to Ms Wells she felt uncomfortable taking the plane as did yet another flight crew. You can as a company second guess them the next day and duke it out verbally. However prior to boarding, push back and such the Pilot and F/O are the HMFIC's (Head Mutha F'er In Charge) end of story case closed. I trust your judgement far more than any Chief Pilot as you and I will fly directly to the crash site.

Anything that erodes that authority is not good for customer, employee or even good business. This ruling no matter how it turns out presents a clear and present danger.
 
Anything that erodes that authority is not good for customer, employee or even good business. This ruling no matter how it turns out presents a clear and present danger.

As others have occasionally mentioned, there will undoubtedly be some innocent of any wrong-doing caught in the net if the company wins. That's the unintended consequences of an illegal job action. It matters not a whit whether the union organized and actively ran it or not. Maybe those working will be lucky and the company will just take USAPA down a notch or two and leave the pilots alone unless they can identify who's been sending some of these messages to keep it up.

Jim
 
Anything that erodes that authority is not good for customer, employee or even good business. This ruling no matter how it turns out presents a clear and present danger.

This is my concern in all this. The crews deal with potential disasters everyday, all airlines, not just us. The erosion of safety levels we are seeing forced by mgmt. reminds me of a place I worked in my youth..not a good place. In the company eyes any safety decision that is made constitutes a "slow down" or "job action". The airline records are littered with choices made that ended badly, but sadly there is no way to track the choices made that were correct, since there is no bad outcome to make the papers.

Some that come to mind:

MD-80 in Littlerock, bad PIC call to continue approach but if nothing bad had come of it nobody would know about it.
DC-9 in CLT, another bad PIC call that would never be known about if the bad ending had not happened.

The interesting part about these two is the term "Bad PIC call" which in reality was not a bad call, just a "risk management" error coupled with just the right circumstances to end badly. In the DC-9 one all the other A/C ahead made it no problem then one didn't. In our current enviroment what do you suppose the mgmt. position would be if that 9 had diverted to another airport? A couple weeks ago I heard one of the guys break out of the holding for CLT and head to his ALT. T-storms everywhere, deviating, having to change holding sites due to weather moving into the hold areas etc. Everybody was watching fuel and I have no idea what his was like but he was the only one to divert.(that I heard). I would not be surprised at all if he received a CP call about that and hasseled about his divert choice. Was his choice the correct one? Well we will never know since he felt that circumstances warrented a divert for fuel and there was nothing to
report" in the papers.

Was Capt. Wells refusal the correct one? All I can say is that I would have done the same thing. I have never flown the 330 and do not pretend to know its systems unlike many on here that have never flown it but are quick to bash her choice. I do however have extensive experience crossing oceans, both the pacific and atlantic in a previous life and have flown to every continent except Antartica. If I had an aircraft with electrical issues and a CP on the phone with me not addressing my concerns but rather pounding on me with "Are you refusing to fly" I can tell you 100% that I would not have gone either.

On the other hand if I had that same CP working with me to find a way to alleviate the maint issues I would be much more receptive to finding a solution to the problem that satisfied safety concerns and got the flight out. I have never and will never go "feet wet" in an aircraft that I am not 100% confident in. Right or Wrong I support any Captain that reacts the same way. They are the ones there at that moment in time having to make the decision based on experience and risk management.

Now lets look at another scenario.......What would mgmt. and the media be saying about her had that A/C started the crossing and didn't make it to the other side and it came to light that she had serious concerns about its condition and took it anyway?

Every single one of us that has ever sat in the left seat has had to make decisions like this, pick one of your choices that you made over the years and ask yourself "what if" in the current "Are you refusing to fly?" environment.
 
As others have occasionally mentioned, there will undoubtedly be some innocent of any wrong-doing caught in the net if the company wins. That's the unintended consequences of an illegal job action. It matters not a whit whether the union organized and actively ran it or not. Maybe those working will be lucky and the company will just take USAPA down a notch or two and leave the pilots alone unless they can identify who's been sending some of these messages to keep it up.

Jim


Jim you have no idea what you are tallking about... This MGMT team is worse than the non skeds or commuteres I used to work for in regard to their fear and intimidation, snooping, weasling... You are not here so I don't thinkn your words mean much .
 
This is my concern in all this. The crews deal with potential disasters everyday, all airlines, not just us. The erosion of safety levels we are seeing forced by mgmt. reminds me of a place I worked in my youth..not a good place. In the company eyes any safety decision that is made constitutes a "slow down" or "job action". The airline records are littered with choices made that ended badly, but sadly there is no way to track the choices made that were correct, since there is no bad outcome to make the papers.

Some that come to mind:

MD-80 in Littlerock, bad PIC call to continue approach but if nothing bad had come of it nobody would know about it.
DC-9 in CLT, another bad PIC call that would never be known about if the bad ending had not happened.

The interesting part about these two is the term "Bad PIC call" which in reality was not a bad call, just a "risk management" error coupled with just the right circumstances to end badly. In the DC-9 one all the other A/C ahead made it no problem then one didn't. In our current enviroment what do you suppose the mgmt. position would be if that 9 had diverted to another airport? A couple weeks ago I heard one of the guys break out of the holding for CLT and head to his ALT. T-storms everywhere, deviating, having to change holding sites due to weather moving into the hold areas etc. Everybody was watching fuel and I have no idea what his was like but he was the only one to divert.(that I heard). I would not be surprised at all if he received a CP call about that and hasseled about his divert choice. Was his choice the correct one? Well we will never know since he felt that circumstances warrented a divert for fuel and there was nothing to
report" in the papers.

Was Capt. Wells refusal the correct one? All I can say is that I would have done the same thing. I have never flown the 330 and do not pretend to know its systems unlike many on here that have never flown it but are quick to bash her choice. I do however have extensive experience crossing oceans, both the pacific and atlantic in a previous life and have flown to every continent except Antartica. If I had an aircraft with electrical issues and a CP on the phone with me not addressing my concerns but rather pounding on me with "Are you refusing to fly" I can tell you 100% that I would not have gone either.

On the other hand if I had that same CP working with me to find a way to alleviate the maint issues I would be much more receptive to finding a solution to the problem that satisfied safety concerns and got the flight out. I have never and will never go "feet wet" in an aircraft that I am not 100% confident in. Right or Wrong I support any Captain that reacts the same way. They are the ones there at that moment in time having to make the decision based on experience and risk management.

Now lets look at another scenario.......What would mgmt. and the media be saying about her had that A/C started the crossing and didn't make it to the other side and it came to light that she had serious concerns about its condition and took it anyway?

Every single one of us that has ever sat in the left seat has had to make decisions like this, pick one of your choices that you made over the years and ask yourself "what if" in the current "Are you refusing to fly?" environment.

bravo, well said.
 
Jim you have no idea what you are tallking about... This MGMT team is worse than the non skeds or commuteres I used to work for in regard to their fear and intimidation, snooping, weasling... You are not here so I don't thinkn your words mean much .
Perhaps Jim is unaware of the recent incident in PHX, a mechanic lying on his back working on the L! (cabin entry door), his body crossing the door so that to enter the aircraft passengers had to step over him, yet, when the captain attempted to use his authority to delay boarding, he was overruled by an agent and reprimanded by the CP.

In PHX, apparently, agents can now, apparently, determine the air worthiness of airframes and the suitability for boarding, seemingly in deference to the CEO's (drunken?) demand for "best" on-time stats. (so that he and his gang of criminals and thugs can receive their outsized bonus). Their tenacious and resource-hungry attempts to achieve "on-time" would seem to be better spent on working to ensure a seamless and comfortable experience for their clients. Of course it might mean sacrifice on their part like actually spending time running an airline instead of spending resources interdicting employees. and, drinking.

Just recently a captain was asked by a gate agent to override an agent supervisor to allow eleven paying passengers to board "late" (the agents can be, and have been, fired for not closing the door to the aircraft no less than ten minutes prior to scheduled push). The captain "remembered" that she did not check something and needed to accomplish another walk-around, giving the agent the time to board the passengers. This, in conjunction with gross padding of trip times, reveals the insanity carefully cultivated by "tempe", in order that the higher ups get their "entitlements".

Absolutely, upper management, with one or two exceptions at US, is completely insane, thinking they can treat each and every event with a cookie-cutter. With a hammer in their hands every event seems to look like a nail.

Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results. - George S. Patton
 
Why is it OK for the Captain to say "I'm not taking this airplane" and smugly storm off to Starbucks, but even asking the question "Are you refusing to fly the airplane?" is interpreted as pilot pushing? They are opposite sides of the very same coin.

I had an east mechanic spring the "Are you refusing the aircraft" thing on me when he wanted me to take an airplane with an open write-up to the next station to be complied with (the MEL was actually a pretty simple one) and I said simply "YES". He said my CP wanted to talk with me, so I called my CP, who said "Why would I want to talk to you? You know what you're doing. You're going to get it fixed or MEL'd, right?" I agreed and we both thought the mechanic was a little ballsy to try that, but the MEL was applied and off we went.

The "Are you refusing to fly the airplane" is simply a trigger, just like the flows, that should occur at a point where everything that can be done to dispatch the airplane has been done and now the issue has to be "Can the captain be satisfied that the airplane conforms to it's type design and is safe for flight?" If the captain's concerns are clouded in a temper tantrum to the point where it's unclear whether anything would satisfy him/her, then you need to see if another captain would have the same level of concern , removing the emotion from it. If the next pilot or two's concerns are clouded in the desire to take an opportunity to participate in a union safety campaign, that complicates things even further and gets further away from the question of whether the aircraft conforms to its type design and is a condition for safe flight.

Every write-up can't be a referendum on the legitimacy of the MEL. Yes there are typo's and on a very outside chance there may be a conflict between two MEL's that went undiscovered, but in the main, the MEL is a very reliable tool that should be used when applicable and the captain should have confidence that the operation can be conducted safely under it.

The real pushing comes from those who want to intimidate pilots with secret Pink Panty lists and "if you not with us, you're against us " perverted logic. What kind of professional accuses management with intimidation, but does what he knows is wrong to avoid peer intimidation?
 
Why is it OK for the Captain to say "I'm not taking this airplane" and smugly storm off to Starbucks, but even asking the question "Are you refusing to fly the airplane?" is interpreted as pilot pushing? They are opposite sides of the very same coin.
Welcome to the insanity.

Who "stormed off to Starbucks"? Is that a narrative that happens with west pilots, so you think to apply the same behavior pattern to east pilots? or, is your fevered grey matter overheated? Again.

I guess you might be a little bereft of grammar knowledge.

One is a statement on the part of the pilot, the other is a question from someone other than the pilot, someone generally in authority, and can easily be used in an accusatory manner. Hardly the "same coin". Generally a statement like the first will be followed shortly after by a question like the second. The east is not used to such treatment and forgive them for interpreting this as "questioning their judgement" as none that I know have ever used such a situation in a personal manner, making the decision only after consulting with their cockpit counterparts and some careful consideration.
 
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