US Pilots Labor Discussion

[AWA320]

I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on that. But for BOTH sides. Guys like oldie, nostradamus, BlackSwan and others should take that advice. Instead, they gloat with supreme confidence and finality of the outcome, when the game is barely past halftime. So perhaps cleardirect is hammering this to demonstrate what it's like. Talking trash exists on both sides, but around here it flows much more freely from, and most of the time initiated by, certain east players.

Whats even more interesting is when you state it like that, the score is 60 to 50. The east has been and still is behind on points. They hit a 3pt'er and think the game has changed in their favor when all thats happend is a time out has been called. When the game resumes the starters will be on the floor and we have 5 that are all 3 point threats 😉

AWA320

 

[nycbusdriver]

You know you don't have to be a hole about everything. You can wait until it's done, see what happens and then gloat if you are right. But that won't do it for you, will it?

I hope you are never treated like the MDA guys were. If you are, I will support you. I know you are frustrated with the guys that want to use it for other purposes, but let me assure you, whether they win or not, they were wronged. Try to separate the two when you take pleasure in their troubles.

At least they have stopped gloating about the damages the east is having to pay.

Ooops!

We're not paying any damages, are we?

 

[isvlives2]

It amazes me that the uneducated comments about the MDA lawsuit. So here is the short version.

1. It has nothing to do with USAPA. MDA pilots take care of ourselves thank you.
2. We, the MDA pilots having been paying for the lawsuit out of our pockets to prove the injustice by ALPA. And don't need a color sticker hanging from our ID to show it.
3. Nobody cared about us until we filed the lawsuit against ALPA. So folks if we win, we get money in our MDA pockets. And that is to make up for ALPA screwing us the rest of our careers.


The only thing involving USAPA is a grievance not lawsuit. I might add has been delayed by the company for a second time regarding longevity. They gave it to us when we returned and then took it away. So you tell me why are they delaying the grievance? So if we win the grievance and regain our longevity how could we not have been mainline pilots?


So unless you can talk educated about MDA....don't comment.

 

[BoeingBoy]

3. Nobody cared about us until we filed the lawsuit against ALPA.

That's what's puzzled me about the suit. The Company, the East MEC, and the East "real" mainline pilots considered the MDA folks furloughed mainline until the MEC lost the change of control grievance over selling the E170's. The company and MEC seniority list showed the MDA folks as furloughed until the suit was filed (in other words the MDA pilots were shown as furloughed on the PID). Yet the company was dropped as a defendant in the suit. And the "real" mainline not only cared nothing about the MDA folks but complained about them "suing us" until the Nic came out, then were cheering you on since they thought a victory would help get rid of the Nic.

Jim

 

[LSS]

It amazes me that the uneducated comments about the MDA lawsuit.

So unless you can talk educated about MDA....don't comment.

Thank you isv... you are right... they are uneducated and don't have a clue!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That's what's puzzled me about the suit. The Company, the East MEC, and the East "real" mainline pilots considered the MDA folks furloughed mainline until the MEC lost the change of control grievance over selling the E170's. The company and MEC seniority list showed the MDA folks as furloughed until the suit was filed (in other words the MDA pilots were shown as furloughed on the PID). Yet the company was dropped as a defendant in the suit. And the "real" mainline not only cared nothing about the MDA folks but complained about them "suing us" until the Nic came out, then were cheering you on since they thought a victory would help get rid of the Nic.

Jim

Absolutely not. You can replace your phrase "real mainline pilots" with the letters "ALPA", then you'd be correct. I and many others NEVER held the opinions you say we did.

Why not just stick to you own opinions and stop trying to put words in others' mouths?

 

[AWA320]

That's what's puzzled me about the suit. The Company, the East MEC, and the East "real" mainline pilots considered the MDA folks furloughed mainline until the MEC lost the change of control grievance over selling the E170's. The company and MEC seniority list showed the MDA folks as furloughed until the suit was filed (in other words the MDA pilots were shown as furloughed on the PID). Yet the company was dropped as a defendant in the suit. And the "real" mainline not only cared nothing about the MDA folks but complained about them "suing us" until the Nic came out, then were cheering you on since they thought a victory would help get rid of the Nic.

Jim

Jim thats even more telling of the east mind set. On the surface it appears that east mainline was all too willing to toss the furloughed (MDA) pilots under the bus and wait for it to back up over them. It wasnt until the award that came down that all of a sudden the MDA pilots were important to their equation. Beware of those who wronged you in the past bearing gifts.

AWA320

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oldie,

Shows how little you know about the MDA situation. Just ask the MDA pilots that were refused jumpseat because the crew didn't know who MDA was. As I said, the complaints about the MDA suit by "real" mainline pilots. The lack of support from "real" mainline pilots when the MDA pilots based in DCA tried to recall the base reps for not supporting them. I flew with F/O's who would ask why the MDA pilots were "suing us". There were a lot of complaints about the suit on the old ALPA US forum website.

And all the time, from the start of MDA, ALPA National considered the MDA pilots as recalled to mainline. It was the MEC ("real" mainline pilots), the company, and many of the "real" mainline pilots that considered the MDA pilots as furloughed if the "real" mainline pilots thought of them at all.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

It amazes me that the uneducated comments about the MDA lawsuit. So here is the short version.

1. It has nothing to do with USAPA. MDA pilots take care of ourselves thank you.
2. We, the MDA pilots having been paying for the lawsuit out of our pockets to prove the injustice by ALPA. And don't need a color sticker hanging from our ID to show it.
3. Nobody cared about us until we filed the lawsuit against ALPA. So folks if we win, we get money in our MDA pockets. And that is to make up for ALPA screwing us the rest of our careers.


The only thing involving USAPA is a grievance not lawsuit. I might add has been delayed by the company for a second time regarding longevity. They gave it to us when we returned and then took it away. So you tell me why are they delaying the grievance? So if we win the grievance and regain our longevity how could we not have been mainline pilots?


So unless you can talk educated about MDA....don't comment.

1. If posters are required to be educated about the topics before posting, then this forum would be silent. Of course there is no such requirement and there is no way to validate that a poster is educated even if the requirement existed. Therefore, telling posters not to comment demonstrates a lack of education on the rules and privileges of this forum, so you have thusly violated your own invented rule.

2. Can you tell us “uneducated” posters how exactly you came to be an “MDA” pilot? What was your status prior to taking this assignment and what other options were presented to you? What would your seniority position hold in terms of seat and equipment independent of the MDA designation?

3. Can you offer any potentially legitimate and legal reasons why Management and ALPA considered MDA non-mainline flying or did they just not like you or something?

 

[BoeingBoy]

2. Can you tell us “uneducated” posters how exactly you came to be an “MDA” pilot? What was your status prior to taking this assignment and what other options were presented to you? What would your seniority position hold in terms of seat and equipment independent of the MDA designation?

3. Can you offer any potentially legitimate and legal reasons why Management and ALPA considered MDA non-mainline flying or did they just not like you or something?

Callaway,

MDA transformed over the course of several concessionary agreements, from initially a 4th wholely owned Express carrier (4th at that time) to disappearing completely. Initially, it would fly all RJ's over 50 seats and be staffed 1st with furloughed mainline pilots, 2nd with pilots at the other 3 wholely owned Express carriers, then 3rd with off the street hiring for any remaining vacancies (which never happened). Before startup, the company made the decision to operate MDA on the mainlime certificate althouogh it was a separate corporate entity. Later concessions, approved by the "real" mainline pilots allowed bigger RJ's to be farmed out so MDA ended up just operating the E170's. A further concession, again voted on by the "real" mainline pilots allowed the E170's to be operated by contract carriers which set the stage for Republic buying the E170's. Finely, MDA was merged with US Inc (mainline) so disappeared as a separate corporate entity - oldie knows so much about it I'll let him tell you when that happened.

So as far as a legitimate reason for considering the MDA folks furloughed was that 1 - that was what was initially negotiated, and 2 - it was a separate corporate entity from mainline although operating on the mainline certificate, and 3 - the pilots had a completely separate contract (also as initially negotiated). There are several more twists and turns in the MDA saga, but that's the gist of it.

As for why they should have been considered active mainline pilots, one can argue that operating on the mainline certificate should have been the test, or getting paychecks from the same account as mainline, or several other points. But when the corporate entity that was MDA was merged into mainline (US Inc) it became impossible to argue that MDA pilots weren't mainline pilots. That didn't keep the MEC and company from showing the MDA pilots as furloughed, however it is what allowed Jerry Glass to testify that MDA didn't exist in the change of control arbitration.

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

Oldie,

It was the MEC ("real" mainline pilots), the company, and many of the "real" mainline pilots that considered the MDA pilots as furloughed if the "real" mainline pilots thought of them at all.

Jim

Just one of the reasons USAPA got voted in

 

[Black Swan]

That's what's puzzled me about the suit. The Company, the East MEC, and the East "real" mainline pilots considered the MDA folks furloughed mainline until the MEC lost the change of control grievance over selling the E170's. The company and MEC seniority list showed the MDA folks as furloughed until the suit was filed (in other words the MDA pilots were shown as furloughed on the PID). Yet the company was dropped as a defendant in the suit. And the "real" mainline not only cared nothing about the MDA folks but complained about them "suing us" until the Nic came out, then were cheering you on since they thought a victory would help get rid of the Nic.

Jim

No, more like the mainline pilots really assumed(incorrectly) their union had done due diligence, and the MDA guys were furloughed. I think everybody assumed this. That is, until the paychecks started coming from USAirways, the ID's said USAir on them and we learned more from the guys that flew there. The clincher was the fact it was operated under the USAirways certificate after the company tried to have it a separate company, and was told by the FAA that they would have to do the entire start up process, manuals, training, EVERYTHING. How did they get around it? by operating the 175 on the USAIRWAYS certificate, as simply an additional aircraft type, in an identical fashion as, say the E-190. How can a company arbitrarily draw a line at a specific airplane type flying on its certificate and say all pilots flying it are FURLOUGHED ? They can't. They told every pilot on the property and ALPA initially this entire airline would have its' own certificate and be a separate entity, like PSA or Piedmont. They could not do it in a timely fashion and snuck it into mainline with ALPA 's knowledge, This was the deal that should get the MDA guys justice. Apparently the ALPA guys knew all about the certificate. The line guys were not told. That is how it happened. Nothing to do with the Nic.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Callaway,

MDA transformed over the course of several concessionary agreements, from initially a 4th wholely owned Express carrier (4th at that time) to disappearing completely. Initially, it would fly all RJ's over 50 seats and be staffed 1st with furloughed mainline pilots, 2nd with pilots at the other 3 wholely owned Express carriers, then 3rd with off the street hiring for any remaining vacancies (which never happened). Before startup, the company made the decision to operate MDA on the mainlime certificate althouogh it was a separate corporate entity. Later concessions, approved by the "real" mainline pilots allowed bigger RJ's to be farmed out so MDA ended up just operating the E170's. A further concession, again voted on by the "real" mainline pilots allowed the E170's to be operated by contract carriers which set the stage for Republic buying the E170's. Finely, MDA was merged with US Inc (mainline) so disappeared as a separate corporate entity - oldie knows so much about it I'll let him tell you when that happened.

So as far as a legitimate reason for considering the MDA folks furloughed was that 1 - that was what was initially negotiated, and 2 - it was a separate corporate entity from mainline although operating on the mainline certificate, and 3 - the pilots had a completely separate contract (also as initially negotiated). There are several more twists and turns in the MDA saga, but that's the gist of it.

As for why they should have been considered active mainline pilots, one can argue that operating on the mainline certificate should have been the test, or getting paychecks from the same account as mainline, or several other points. But when the corporate entity that was MDA was merged into mainline (US Inc) it became impossible to argue that MDA pilots weren't mainline pilots. That didn't keep the MEC and company from showing the MDA pilots as furloughed, however it is what allowed Jerry Glass to testify that MDA didn't exist in the change of control arbitration.

Jim

Again, more incorrect assumptions on YOUR part. I have NEVER proclaimed myself to be an expert on the MDA situation. I only remember that ALPA made all the deals. Just like LOA 84, LOA 93 and others. More behind closed doors wheeling and dealing, then release only the info you need to to make it happen, whether it was correct or not.

I DO remember the deal being offered to the POTENTIAL furloughees as:
1. Be furloughed, or
2. Go to work at DC Air (MDA, as it was later known, when Mr Johnson smartly divorced himself from the company).

That implies that an employee at MDA would have a company status, different from a furloughee.

 

[BoeingBoy]

oldie, if you knew what you were talking about you'd be dangerous. Fortunately you have no clue. There are no, zero, nada assumptions in my two posts on the MDA situation.

You didn't take your kid to the CLT roadshow to hold the "Let my daddy vote" sign did you?

If you know so much about the sad saga of MDA, when was it merged into mainline? Someone who tells me I'm wrong should know the answer or admit their ignorance...

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

it was a separate corporate entity from mainline although operating on the mainline certificate, and 3 - the pilots had a completely separate contract (also as initially negotiated).


As for why they should have been considered active mainline pilots, one can argue that operating on the mainline certificate should have been the test, or getting paychecks from the same account as mainline

Kinda reminds of our current situation East/West.

I wonder which account the America West pay stubs they all crowed about came from or how about the PHX Rep's letters to "fellow America West Pilots"?

Could've gotten interesting if United had picked up steam with our separate operations!