US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

oldie, if you knew what you were talking about you'd be dangerous. Fortunately you have no clue. There are no, zero, nada assumptions in my two posts on the MDA situation.

You didn't take your kid to the CLT roadshow to hold the "Let my daddy vote" sign did you?

If you know so much about the sad saga of MDA, when was it merged into mainline? Someone who tells me I'm wrong should know the answer or admit their ignorance...

Jim

Again, since you didn't get it the first time as you seldom do, I am NOT any sort of expert on the MDA situation. I stated that myself. What about that is so hard to understand? You said I was, or had proclaimed myself to be. BAD ASSUMPTION. There's at least one more than "zero, nada". Since I'm NOT an expert on it, I don't know how many more are in your post. We ALL know that YOU are the expert on EVERYTHING posted here. Aren't you glad I cleared that up?

 

[isvlives2]

2. Can you tell us “uneducated” posters how exactly you came to be an “MDA” pilot? What was your status prior to taking this assignment and what other options were presented to you? What would your seniority position hold in terms of seat and equipment independent of the MDA designation?

3. Can you offer any potentially legitimate and legal reasons why Management and ALPA considered MDA non-mainline flying or did they just not like you or something?



MDA was offered to furoughed pilots under the assumption it was going to be operated under "Potomac Air" certificate, run by Bob Johnson a USAirways board member. With an American Eagle contract. When it proved to expensive to comply with the FAA they brought MDA on USAirways certificate unknown to the MDA pilots but with the ALPA MEC approval. When the 170s were delivered with "Express" on the side the FAA initally was going to require it be removed. But of course a deal was worked out. Options to us were were stay furloughed, jet4jobs or MDA. We didn't complain until we were using mainline FOM, USAirways facilities, training manual, US owned the 170 simulator, payroll by USAirways. We were AAA ALPA members and the mainline chief pilot was our boss. So if it stinks like a scam, it is a scam.

If the company and ALPA admitted it was mainline they would have had to offer a legitmate recall and contract. Which of course they didn't want to do. Where else to you get a 17 year captain at $60/hr.


So if we win the grievance and regain our longevity that was taken away, it opens the door that we were mainline pilots. Which is why I think it keeps getting delayed. It is going to bust everything open and prove that the NIC list given to the arbitrator was flawed. Again our lawsuit has nothing to do with it, it is a totally seperate. It is just seeking monetary damages against ALPA not seniority.

 

[prechilill]

MDA was offered to furoughed pilots under the assumption it was going to be operated under "Potomac Air" certificate, run by Bob Johnson a USAirways board member. With an American Eagle contract. When it proved to expensive to comply with the FAA they brought MDA on USAirways certificate unknown to the MDA pilots but with the ALPA MEC approval. When the 170s were delivered with "Express" on the side the FAA initally was going to require it be removed. But of course a deal was worked out. Options to us were were stay furloughed, jet4jobs or MDA. We didn't complain until we were using mainline FOM, USAirways facilities, training manual, US owned the 170 simulator, payroll by USAirways. We were AAA ALPA members and the mainline chief pilot was our boss. So if it stinks like a scam, it is a scam.

If the company and ALPA admitted it was mailine they would have had to offer a legitmate recall and contract. Which of course they didn't want to do. Where else to you get a 17 year captain at $60/hr.

isv, quite interesting posts. I feel for you guys, I really do, but have one question. Can you explain to me (west pilot) why the east mec certified their seniority list during the PID date without having you guys listed as active pilots? And why didn't the same east line pilots who come on here regularly stand up for you guys back then while this was going on? I searched this forum for that time period and didn't see anything as far as support goes for putting you on the mainline list- all that talk started after Nicolau. Two years passed between the PID and Nicolau award, why did the east line pilots start picking up your battle axe to use against us?

 

[Black Swan]

isv, quite interesting posts. I feel for you guys, I really do, but have one question. Can you explain to me (west pilot) why the east mec certified their seniority list during the PID date without having you guys listed as active pilots? And why didn't the same east line pilots who come on here regularly stand up for you guys back then while this was going on? I searched this forum for that time period and didn't see anything as far as support goes for putting you on the mainline list- all that talk started after Nicolau. Two years passed between the PID and Nicolau award, why did the east line pilots start picking up your battle axe to use against us?

One pilots' answer. A pilot who was never furloughed and far from MDA, but who had a lot of his friends, F/O's furloughed into it. We simply did not know enough of what was going on. We were told that this was a separate entity, certificate, etc. By ALPA Nat'l, by the company. By our ALPA reps. I think the fact numerous pilots about to be furloughed not going to MDA but rather to corporate jobs, charter carriers, active duty with reserve and guard is testimony to the fact even they did not know the machinations that took place. If they knew they were going to be flying on the USAirways certificate, to protect their longevity, seniority, etc for a merger or whatever reason they would have selected MDA. They assumed they were being furloughed and made their choices the best way for themselves based on what they were told. As I said earlier. The company could not in a timely fashion gin up this operation as a separate entity. They then simply added it as a separate type of aircraft flying in the fleet. Like the 190. How then do they consider these guys to be furloughed? Could AWA have made your guys flying the 737 fleet be "furloughed" and the Airbus guys not? No, they were both on the certificate, the same certificate. To get an idea of what this really turned out to be, it was exactly like METROJET. Exactly.And those guys were never furloughed. You can choose to believe it or not. It is what I personally believed. It came out much, much later what had actually gone down. These guys were absolutely taken advantage of, and this situation should be rectified. They were NEVER furloughed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the company and ALPA admitted it was mainline they would have had to offer a legitmate recall and contract. Which of course they didn't want to do. Where else to you get a 17 year captain at $60/hr.

I think that was indeed the crus of the matter. Once MDA was allowed to start operating on the mainline certificate, staffed with furloughed mainline pilots that were from all the seniority range of the mainline furloughees and CEL list (other wholey owned Express carriers), it was a big cluster___ trying to undo it. A lot of the pilots flying at MDA would possibly have had to be furloughed as some furloughed pilots would take the job as mainline who passed on it as MDA - especially the CEL pilots that went to MDA and whose Express job had been filled so had nowhere to go back to. The company was more than happy not upsetting the apple cart as was the MEC (who obviously were "real" mainline pilots).

Jim

 

[767jetz]

The company was more than happy not upsetting the apple cart as was the MEC (who obviously were "real" mainline pilots).

Jim

No, no, Jim. We all know that it's ALPA's fault. It's never an east pilot's fault. Only ALPA. East pilot are infallible, even if they were the people running the ALPA show at the time. It's been said thousands of times on this forum so we know it to be true. 😀

 

[BoeingBoy]

BS, I agree with that - too many blindly acted as sheep and allowed themselves to be herded in the direction the MEC (and company) wanted. It required delving into what was really going on to make informed choices, which most "non-furloughed" mainline pilots didn't take to time to do.

It is ironic that those who blindly followed the MEC along in 2004/2005 now blame it all on some monolithic ALPA that was supposedly pulling the strings of the puppets who voted.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Again, more incorrect assumptions on YOUR part. I have NEVER proclaimed myself to be an expert on the MDA situation.

No, but you didn't waste any time telling me about my bad assumptions in my first post on this subject. I did keep up with what was happening as MDA morphed from a separate whollyowned to mainline, so if you're not more knowledgeable stop saying I'm wrong and you're right.

BTW, it was July 2004, before BK2, that the corporate entity of MDA was merged into US Inc and MDA disappeared except for the perception among "real" mainlime pilots that it was still a separate entity staffed with furloughed/CEL pilots.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

No, but you didn't waste any time telling me about my bad assumptions in my first post on this subject. I did keep up with what was happening as MDA morphed from a separate whollyowned to mainline, so if you're not more knowledgeable stop saying I'm wrong and you're right.

BTW, it was July 2004, before BK2, that the corporate entity of MDA was merged into US Inc and MDA disappeared except for the perception among "real" mainlime pilots that it was still a separate entity staffed with furloughed/CEL pilots.

Jim

Yes, the assumption that I had proclaimed myself an expert. I did NOT, and NEVER had. So, when you're wrong, you are, indeed wrong.

As far as ALPA's culpability, what were the pilots of U paying ALPA National for? Wasn't it their job to provide some kind of information, legal advice, or at least protect junior members from more senior, ALPA officers that wielded the power? I would say that if they couldn't at least provide some "minimum" level of those items it was NOT providing proper representation.

 

[Black Swan]

No, no, Jim. We all know that it's ALPA's fault. It's never an east pilot's fault. Only ALPA. East pilot are infallible, even if they were the people running the ALPA show at the time. It's been said thousands of times on this forum so we know it to be true. 😀

Our ALPA reps bought off on this, without our knowledge. It was absolutely their obligation to sunshine this fact the entire operation was to be on the mainline certificate. So you are absolutely right.If an ALPA rep and ALPA Nat'l knew about this, and they did, what is your excuse for them not telling their dues paying members???

 

[Black Swan]

BS, I agree with that - too many blindly acted as sheep and allowed themselves to be herded in the direction the MEC (and company) wanted. It required delving into what was really going on to make informed choices, which most "non-furloughed" mainline pilots didn't take to time to do.

It is ironic that those who blindly followed the MEC along in 2004/2005 now blame it all on some monolithic ALPA that was supposedly pulling the strings of the puppets who voted.

Jim

I made it a point to specifically take advantage of the standing "USAirways pilots in good standing are allowed to address the MEC at......" several times. After one such time when I and others stated our displeasure at the way the MEC was not representing our pilots, We were completely dismissed by then AAA MEC chair Chris Beebe. He never even took the time to ask a pilot who had take the time to fly to the meeting a question, let alone serve on a local committee for fellow pilots. He just walked right by.....

 

[isvlives2]

isv, quite interesting posts. I feel for you guys, I really do, but have one question. Can you explain to me (west pilot) why the east mec certified their seniority list during the PID date without having you guys listed as active pilots? And why didn't the same east line pilots who come on here regularly stand up for you guys back then while this was going on? I searched this forum for that time period and didn't see anything as far as support goes for putting you on the mainline list- all that talk started after Nicolau. Two years passed between the PID and Nicolau award, why did the east line pilots start picking up your battle axe to use against us?




There were two ALPA seniority lists. MDA furloughed, MDA mainline. The ALPA MEC convinced us the arbitrator was given the list showing us as mainline pilots. Of course after the award that list disappeared and he used the wrong one. Many east pilots didn't care about us. I don't understand why either, I quess it's the "I've got mine attitude".

 

[Black Swan]

isv, quite interesting posts. I feel for you guys, I really do, but have one question. Can you explain to me (west pilot) why the east mec certified their seniority list during the PID date without having you guys listed as active pilots? And why didn't the same east line pilots who come on here regularly stand up for you guys back then while this was going on? I searched this forum for that time period and didn't see anything as far as support goes for putting you on the mainline list- all that talk started after Nicolau. Two years passed between the PID and Nicolau award, why did the east line pilots start picking up your battle axe to use against us?




There were two ALPA seniority lists. MDA furloughed, MDA mainline. The ALPA MEC convinced us the arbitrator was given the list showing us as mainline pilots. Of course after the award that list disappeared and he used the wrong one. Many east pilots didn't care about us. I don't understand why either, I quess it's the "I've got mine attitude". No, you need to re read what I said.

 

[Black Swan]

isv, quite interesting posts. I feel for you guys, I really do, but have one question. Can you explain to me (west pilot) why the east mec certified their seniority list during the PID date without having you guys listed as active pilots? And why didn't the same east line pilots who come on here regularly stand up for you guys back then while this was going on? I searched this forum for that time period and didn't see anything as far as support goes for putting you on the mainline list- all that talk started after Nicolau. Two years passed between the PID and Nicolau award, why did the east line pilots start picking up your battle axe to use against us?




There were two ALPA seniority lists. MDA furloughed, MDA mainline. The ALPA MEC convinced us the arbitrator was given the list showing us as mainline pilots. Of course after the award that list disappeared and he used the wrong one. Many east pilots didn't care about us. I don't understand why either, I quess it's the "I've got mine attitude".

No, it was nothing of the sort. This is the kind of post that loses your cause support. Did you read what I posted?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes, the assumption that I had proclaimed myself an expert. I did NOT, and NEVER had. So, when you're wrong, you are, indeed wrong.

You definitely are spring loaded to the "you're wrong" position, aren't you. Read what I said - you said I was wrong in my first post on the MDA subject. Because of that I treated you as an "expert" even though it was obvious you aren't.

And that monolithic "ALPA" thing again. How do you explain ALPA national treating the MDA pilots as recalled to mainline from the start while the MEC did not?

Jim