US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

That's sorta what I think when some easties quote the dissenting opinion on the Nic award to support the view that the award was flawed...

Jim

Good point Jim, and guilty as charged. I'll have to remember that when the westies do it.

It really doesn't matter what Brucia said, or what any of us thinks.

 

[nevergiveup]

Then both ALPA policy and the law meets such a test - both give the sides ample opportunity to negotiate a settlement without an arbitrator being involved. The problem with completely eliminating an arbitrator is what happens if the sides can't reach an agreement? The airline stays in limbo for forever, never being able to fully exploit the advantages of merging? To leave everything is limbo risks one side or the other getting the majority of post-merger goodies and no one knows in advance which side will do the getting and which side will do the losing. So while east has seen the positive produced by this merger, if there's another east may be on the losing side and begging for an arbitrator to bring the process to an end.

As a last resort only, an arbitration is supposed to bring the process to conclusion, under both ALPA policy and the law. That's where the "final and binding" comes in. The job of the arbitrator is come up with what he/she considers a fair solution when the two sides can't. It's not to keep making recommendations until one is found that both sides can live with - that's the mediator's job.

Jim

True, but in this case, farming out the decision does not appear to have accomplished the task. I would have prefered a policy that gives a certain number of points for relative position as well as points for years of service. APLA's policy is far from anything like that. I wrote them years ago about this but received no response. At least I tried.

 

[BoeingBoy]

True, but in this case, farming out the decision does not appear to have accomplished the task.

The key is to look at why this case was different. Why did only this one turn out the way it did when others under the same basic policy not? Could it be that this one is the only one where one side does everything possible to evade the final and binding result of arbitration. Every merger under the ALPA policy had the negotiate, mediate, arbitrate process. Every one had goals with no specific method of integrating the lists spelled out. Not one had a point system like you mention. Yet this is the only one that is still being fought 6 years after the merger and 4.5 years after the award came out.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Nope...no ATP, no CFI, no A&P...nada. Other family members were there. I don't want to bust your chops over it. It may not work for everybody.

Driver

If you do a search for your licenses and find none, does that mean you are impersonating a rich airline pilot.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You did not need to spend 2M plus in donations just to find out when your DFR case would be ripe. All you really needed was an honest law firm to tell you to wait for a ratified contract, and not milk you for 2 years only to find out the "truth." Most assuredly ripe then, yes indeed. That is a fact!

You usapians were convinced the West would just roll over. In fact, you went "all-in" on your DOH cram down by eliminating the West as a separate entity. The company took a step back and watched what the West would do. DFRs are notoriously difficult to win. The West did it - in TWO HOURS OF DELIBERATIONS! Yes we did spend a fair amount of money, plus had to defend against the wretched, unethical and very scabbish actions by the East of using their fake union to sue individual West pilots on fabricated claims. But, we did it and the company took note. When the 9th Cir. came out with their curve ball, it was the company who had to do something because they knew the West has a winning case and that they want no part of negotiating with USAPA absent blanket immunity. Plus, what's there not to love if you're Parker? He's got two-thirds of his pilot group on BK wages and he'll in all probability have an injunction to hold over the union. Doug doesn't need to negotiate.

That's what our $2million bought. Priceless.

Enjoy LOA93. I've got nearly two and a half decades left to amortize this debacle. How about you?

 

[Pi brat]

The key is to look at why this case was different. Why did only this one turn out the way it did when others under the same basic policy not? Could it be that this one is the only one where one side does everything possible to evade the final and binding result of arbitration. Every merger under the ALPA policy had the negotiate, mediate, arbitrate process. Every one had goals with no specific method of integrating the lists spelled out. Not one had a point system like you mention. Yet this is the only one that is still being fought 6 years after the merger and 4.5 years after the award came out.

Jim

I actually thought that ALPA merger policy made sense, in theory. Unless you have a one-size-fits-all policy like the AFA and DOH, you have to have guidelines. ALPA's policy seemed to be setup to remove (try) the politics of the union itself and let the parties decide, and if not, a supposedly neutral third party. I figured that was so that a big airline like UA couldn't buy a little one like AWA and have the national union come down and let the bigger dues payer run roughshod over the little one. In doing so the union had some protection from DFR.

My biggest issue with ALPA merger policy was the one man arbitrator. That just never made sense to have the future of so many pilots in the hand of one person and his/her biases. Seems they agreed, after the horse was out of the barn.

I think ours went the way it did for a couple of reasons. The biggest was the disparity in seniority vs DOH on the east. I can't remember another airline that survived that had furloughed pilots with 16-17 years LOS. We had such a big bottle neck in the 80s that everyone was waiting on seats. Nic only looked at where we were in 2007, and not how fast the east had the potential to finally start moving up, a situation that I don't think would have been as big with a merger of AWA and anyone else. Add to that the fact that the side that felt they "lost" was the bigger group with big ALPA issues, and the time was perfect for what happened.

All IMHO, of course.

 

[Move2CLT]

Thank God you're OK, you haven't gone that long since you "got here".

April 20, 2005. Hmmm, why would Doug be so confident then??????? Oh yeah, they were just about to announce the merger that brought with it tons o' cash and would save AWA from CHP 11.

You said something like "double digit quarters of profits". Here's a hint, that is more than 9. Let's see em. Did you catch the 10-K I posted?

Besides, Doug was probably just saying that to make you feel better 🙂

Welcome back sport, I thought it was something I said.

There's nothing you can say that would upset me sport. Unlike you, I don't run away for a week or two because someone hurts my feelings. Remember when you did that? Pretty childish, wasn't it.

 

[Pi brat]

There's nothing you can say that would upset me sport. Unlike you, I don't run away for a week or two because someone hurts my feelings. Remember when you did that? Pretty childish, wasn't it.

Aw, you can't back up what you pulled out of your ass(isn't that your favorite term, other than GD and shut up?) so you throw barbs at me? Nice.

I really did miss you, it would have been fun watching you dance.

 

[Phoenix]

You usapians...

When you start a conversation by pointing the finger at them, how much longer do people listen to you?

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you do a search for your licenses and find none, does that mean you are impersonating a rich airline pilot.

There is one other possibility that I can think of - if you submitted a request to not have your name/address/etc included in the info the FAA releases. Until I was looking at the FAA site and saw a note about people who had submitted that request not being included in the downloadable database, I had forgotten that I had submitted such a request back in the mid-90's. That would explain me not showing up on that 3rd party site or in the FAA database.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

That's what our $2million bought. Priceless.

Enjoy LOA93. I've got nearly two and a half decades left to amortize this debacle. How about you?

Good morning Charlie, WINNING again? I have to wonder about anyone, on either side, who thinks this is pricless.

Just a little under two decades left, with a quarter century done.

 

[Phoenix]

If you do a search for your licenses and find none, does that mean you are impersonating a rich airline pilot.

There is one other possibility that I can think of - if you submitted a request to not have your name/address/etc included in the info the FAA releases. Until I was looking at the FAA site and saw a note about people who had submitted that request not being included in the downloadable database, I had forgotten that I had submitted such a request back in the mid-90's. That would explain me not showing up on that 3rd party site or in the FAA database.

Jim

Nice try but you didn't really answer the question. Merely appearing to not have a license in no way means you are impersonating a rich airline pilot, but showing pictures of oneself wearing a USAir uniform definitely means one is impersonating a rich airline pilot.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Good morning Charlie, WINNING again? I have to wonder about anyone, on either side, who thinks this is pricless.

Just a little under two decades left, with a quarter century done.

This has carved out a very unpredictable path that no one anticipated, including the company. But, for me and 80%+ of the West pilots, it's been worth it and we've backed it up with our own $$$. Now we're pretty much done. Nothing to do but sit back and watch events unfold. Much of the money spent to gather evidence in DFR I will be reusable in DFR II. That's what you guys on the East just aren't getting. The West is done. We don't need to do anything else. We've fought our battle and we've done it well.

 

[Pi brat]

This has carved out a very unpredictable path that no one anticipated, including the company. But, for me and 80%+ of the West pilots, it's been worth it and we've backed it up with our own $$$. Now we're pretty much done. Nothing to do but sit back and watch events unfold. Much of the money spent to gather evidence in DFR I will be reusable in DFR II. That's what you guys on the East just aren't getting. The West is done. We don't need to do anything else. We've fought our battle and we've done it well.

Compare and contrast that post to the "pricless" post above. I cannot argue with any of that, I have always said that you had every right to fight for what you think is right and at time thought you had good odds. It's just by the "priceless" statement and others like "LOA 93 observer, enjoy LOA 93 for the rest of your career" etc, serve no purpose. You will win or lose the seniority battle in court, then we will ALL add up our losses. The other crap doesn't help you, it hurts you by steeling east resolve.

 

[A320 Driver]

If you do a search for your licenses and find none, does that mean you are impersonating a rich airline pilot.

No, it means Cactusboy53 was just flat wrong in post 22761. It happens...

Driver B)