US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

I did watch it, but he gave no date that they would have shutdown, but he did estimate AWA would have filed ch11 by the end of '05, and that it would not have been pretty. He says we BOTH benefited from the merger. Did you catch that?

Hmmm let's see the man said you would have liquidated, meaning no job no career expectations. The west would have filed ch 11 meaning reduced career expectations. So how did Nic. get it wrong again?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Because PI is convinced that US would have survived and prospered. There's not a shred of evidence to support that, so he points to what the new US has done since the merger except he doesn't consider it a new US. He sees it as west crashing his door in and wanting rewards for doing so.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

You did not need to spend 2M plus in donations just to find out when your DFR case would be ripe. All you really needed was an honest law firm to tell you to wait for a ratified contract, and not milk you for 2 years only to find out the "truth." Most assuredly ripe then, yes indeed. That is a fact!

The company is not being honest, they know exactly what their responsibilities are. They only have to negotiate in good faith. I think Rocky and Bullwinkle were correct. You are forgetting that a true seniority list, and not just a proposal, must be ratified in a contract first. Only then is it a "list."

But we have all been over this stuff for years here. Who saved who? Who should have done what years ago? Blah Blah. No meaning now. We are where we are.

Are they still in the party mode on the Ninth floor over LOA 93? (nope.)

RR

You mean like the honest law firms that you shopped, until SSM&P told you that DOH was a slam dunk? You do know that SSM&P have now taken over 10 million dollars of "our" dues money and have left the building, right? Our new legal counsel has scant experience in labor law.

True, we are where we are. The fact remains that had your group accepted the Nicolau list (as they will likely be legally forced to do), we would be negotiating a SECOND contract as one body. We are where we are because of USAPA, USAPA supporters and those that keep their heads in the sand (so as to allow USAPA to operate unchecked) direct actions.

USAPA and the East pilot group will go down in the history of commercial aviation as the largest group of malcontents & dishonest people ever. Looking in the mirror, you can not see this because of the persona "of the most professional group of pilots" to ever grace this earth... :blink:

The good news is that we should have a small profit this year (or break even). Thanks for that.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Because PI is convinced that US would have survived and prospered. There's not a shred of evidence to support that, so he points to what the new US has done since the merger except he doesn't consider it a new US. He sees it as west crashing his door in and wanting rewards for doing so.

Jim

I'd like to see any example in the history of aviation, anywhere - including foreign - where an airline has furloughed over a third of its pilot force but nevertheless survived all on their own.

The AWA deal was the bankers' deal to get as much as they could out of the assets without having to risk competition from other creditors who wanted their piece. The merger was not Parker's idea; he and Lakefield were nothing but facilitators. The bankers needed them to go to court (not personally, but through the attorneys) and sell the jobs-saved plan to Judge Mitchell. The judge bought it much to the chagrin of the creditors committee who wanted liquidation of US Air. Nothing new here. The only ghastly outcome has been the East's sense of entitlement and absolute arrogance. We started this merger totally on your side and wanting this work. You on the other hand have gone out of your way to screw us, to decimate us. You have proven yourselves to be far more of a threat to our careers, our families, our livelihood than any management ever could. I think I can speak for an overwhelming majority on the West when I say, "Screw you guys. The Nicolau is it."

 

[Pi brat]

You're right, but I know the shape US was in and can say that nothing else did happen. During the period where anyone could file a POR with the court - any creditor, any other potential merger partner, any potential white knight - nobody did. That should tell you something, like maybe no one else was interested...Bill Gates and all the Arabs remained quiet.




Jim

You are exactly right, NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED, the two companies continued towards the eventual merger that made anything else happening unnecessary. Let's look at it another way. Let's say in the months they were looking a merger, Parker said "No, it's not worth the risk". Would that mean that Lakefield would have thrown in the towel? Maybe, maybe not, but he sure did fight for us. He had rounded up a lot of money, maybe he would have convinced someone else to bankroll US Airways exit form CH 11 so they could buy another airline in Chp 11, say Northwest in Sept '05 or even AWA in the end of '05 as Parker said was probable. We don't know because the companies decided to merge and it changed everything else.

 

[cactusboy53]

No, it means Cactusboy53 was just flat wrong in post 22761. It happens...

Driver B)

Offer still stands Driver. Give me your first and last name (as printed on your certificate). I can do the rest. It might take me more that a few minutes, but I'll bet I can come up with it via one of the websites that provide such information.

Presuming that you are listed on the Nicolau list & the east seniority list, of course.

 

[Pi brat]

Hmmm let's see the man said you would have liquidated, meaning no job no career expectations. The west would have filed ch 11 meaning reduced career expectations. So how did Nic. get it wrong again?

Because the reduced career expectations would not lead to the windfalls the west got.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'd like to see any example in the history of aviation, anywhere - including foreign - where an airline has furloughed over a third of its pilot force but nevertheless survived all on their own.

Well, it could be argued that US would have ultimately ended up in precisely the same position but the '91 furlough was of at least 25% of the pilots as I recall, and US didn't even file for bankruptcy.

The post 911 furlough in 2002 resulted in 1/3 of the pilots being furloughed, but that is easier to tie to the ultimate fate US would have had had it continued to be a stand-alone carrier.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

The only ghastly outcome has been the East's sense of entitlement and absolute arrogance. We started this merger totally on your side and wanting this work. You on the other hand have gone out of your way to screw us, to decimate us. You have proven yourselves to be far more of a threat to our careers, our families, our livelihood than any management ever could. I think I can speak for an overwhelming majority on the West when I say, "Screw you guys. The Nicolau is it."

I'd say the east's was only matched and exceeded by the west. Watch the hissy fit crew news sessions. I believe it was the "Happy Meal" one where the guy says he told Doug not to do the merger. I remember west bs from day one on the ALPA web. Arrogant and full of ####.

 

[cactusboy53]

Quintessential post.

Which part? The part about seeking "an honest law firm"? Now that's funny stuff!!! SSM&P are leaving the building. Cleary (all of a sudden) is concerned about SSM&P's billing practices and is HIRING (because at USAPA, we have boatloads of $$!) a firm to audit the billing of SSM& P.

This is like a stinking SOAP OPERA. It would be funny if the west pilots weren't the red-headed step-children in the plot!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'd say the east's was only matched and exceeded by the west. Watch the hissy fit crew news sessions. I believe it was the "Happy Meal" one where the guy says he told Doug not to do it. I remember west bs from day one on the ALPA web. Arrogant and full of ####.

The West is pissed. We've followed the rules only to be stuck dealing with completely feckless actors on the other two sides, the company being one of them. But I expect the company to be feckless. That's what they do. What I don't expect and what I and many West pilots won't tolerate, is fellow labor doing what the East has done since 2007. Screw you guys. The Nicolau is it.

 

[Reed Richards]

You mean like the honest law firms that you shopped, until SSM&P told you that DOH was a slam dunk? You do know that SSM&P have now taken over 10 million dollars of "our" dues money and have left the building, right? Our new legal counsel has scant experience in labor law.

True, we are where we are. The fact remains that had your group accepted the Nicolau list (as they will likely be legally forced to do), we would be negotiating a SECOND contract as one body. We are where we are because of USAPA, USAPA supporters and those that keep their heads in the sand (so as to allow USAPA to operate unchecked) direct actions.

USAPA and the East pilot group will go down in the history of commercial aviation as the largest group of malcontents & dishonest people ever. Looking in the mirror, you can not see this because of the persona "of the most professional group of pilots" to ever grace this earth... :blink:

The good news is that we should have a small profit this year (or break even). Thanks for that.

First the "honest" part. Marty and the gang knew darn well the DFR was not ripe. Unless you went against their opinion (which is possible) they did not give you honest advice. Now to the competence of the firms involved. You Sir do not have any judgments of any kind against this union, past or present. Poof. Gone. Never existed. You do not have a DFR case even filed.

I say you shopped for Wake, you say we shopped for Seham. So what either way. What stands now, and will stand no matter what his participation going forward, is that Seham said were free to negotiate a new proposed list. Time and a lack of a new contract may well be big factors. But the fact stands you are never, ever, in any scenario getting the NIC as written. Seham was right, and (despite your inability to read any dicta) so was the 9th and SCOTUS. Wake was wrong, embarrassing wrong the day the Empire suit was thrown out in CLT. Talk about the handwriting on the wall.

Time is NOT on the side of the West. The drumbeat continues..you simply have no Scope. None. Where is your min fleet protection? Ours is in our underlying contract, paid for in givebacks. The TA is about to be changed. Just watch. USAPA and the Company can make tentative changes at will, and put it out for a vote to the members.

Also, I posted here a while back the list of firms USAPA interviewed, noting Seham was not even our first choice! Give them all a call and ask for their counsel on the issue of NIC being dead. If you are J. Mack, better pay up front..you have a reputation for stiffing your legal help.

RR

 

[aquagreen73s]

First the "honest" part. Marty and the gang knew darn well the DFR was not ripe.

Man you guys just won't quit, will you? You're no different than Chip, except that at least Chip is honest.

Unless you went against their opinion (which is possible) they did not give you honest advice.

What a laugh. You went all in on what Seham and Bradford sold you, that the West would just cave, and now you're stuck for several more years on LOA93. Two federal judges said we're ripe and cacophony of labor law experts said the Ninth got it wrong. No problem. We've got the declaratory action that will drag out for several more years. We've got a mountain of evidence ready to be reused in the unlikely event we get to DFR II (the company ain't going to deal on seniority). How is that plan working out for you? Huh? You guys are real men of genius.

You Sir do not have any judgments of any kind against this union, past or present. Poof. Gone. Never existed. You do not have a DFR case even filed.

Well, then what are you waiting for? Go get a contract then?

See....you can't get a contract because the West will sue and win. The company knows this. Even Tashima and Graber knew that under these facts the West will win on the merits, because that is exactly where their "painfully ripe" DFR characterization comes in.

So you see, we do have judgments against the scab union, and the evidence isn't going away. We'll be happy to roll the evidence out to the next trier of fact IF we ever get there (which we probably won't, but I'm repeating myself now).

I say you shopped for Wake,

Right. And the company shopped for Judge Conrad too. And the Easter Bunny will bring you DOH, right?

So what either way. What stands now, and will stand no matter what his participation going forward, is that Seham said were free to negotiate a new proposed list.

Yes, nobody ever expects the usapians to ever learn from experiences. We get it.

Time and a lack of a new contract may well be big factors.

I'll take your word for it coming from someone on year number 8 of a BK contract, but the same isn't true for the West. Time is something we have lots of.

Seham was right, and (despite your inability to read any dicta) so was the 9th and SCOTUS. Wake was wrong, embarrassing wrong the day the Empire suit was thrown out in CLT. Talk about the handwriting on the wall.

Do you read? Serious question.

Time is NOT on the side of the West. The drumbeat continues..you simply have no Scope. None. Where is your min fleet protection? Ours is in our underlying contract, paid for in givebacks. The TA is about to be changed. Just watch. USAPA and the Company can make tentative changes at will, and put it out for a vote to the members.

Ummm, the T/A. That's where our min fleet protection is. How many widebodies are you over the T/A by the way? Where do those widebodies fly? Europe is it? Ground zero of the next global financial crises . . .

Ours is in our underlying contract, paid for in givebacks.

Well, prepare to continue to give then!

The TA is about to be changed. Just watch. USAPA and the Company can make tentative changes at will, and put it out for a vote to the members.

OMG. Are you that ignorant? Change the existing T/A and you've got a ripe DFR on your hands. Please do it. Please.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Also, I posted here a while back the list of firms USAPA interviewed, noting Seham was not even our first choice! Give them all a call and ask for their counsel on the issue of NIC being dead. If you are J. Mack, better pay up front..you have a reputation for stiffing your legal help.

RR

....and this is the clown mentality that runs an actual pilots' union. Incredible.

 

[A320 Driver]

Offer still stands Driver. Give me your first and last name (as printed on your certificate). I can do the rest. It might take me more that a few minutes, but I'll bet I can come up with it via one of the websites that provide such information.

Presuming that you are listed on the Nicolau list & the east seniority list, of course.

I am pretty computer literate and I'm telling you that it won't work for my certificate. I can get anyone else's by the same last name including my relatives, but mine will not come up...OK? Let go of that pride a little. Nobody is right all the time.

Driver B)