US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

In voting for ALPA I realized that some form of the Nic would probably come with it. In addition to that I went to great lengths to fight USAPA on the C18, so I have had west guys thank me.

You know I always thought you were a reasonable guy (until you got into the Jim battle) but how do you undo what has been been done?

 

[Pi brat]

You know I always thought you were a reasonable guy (until you got into the Jim battle) but how do you undo what has been been done?

Stop asking questions and lay our YOUR plans for change and I will consider them as I see no hope for change outside of the courts.

If you can't do that, move along.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Stop asking questions and lay our YOUR plans for change and I will consider them as I see no hope for change outside of the courts.

If you can't do that, move along.

For me it all comes down to timing.

You change unions before the decision then you're OK.

When you leave your future up to an outsider in no uncertain terms then you are at their mercy.

I find reneging on obligations reprehensible on moral grounds.

I realize it's "all about the money". Let' not kid anybody.

"Integrity" has cost so much and has caused so much animosity which,in the end is not right.

I would like to think not everyone thinks like you do.

Apparently you will really need to "move on" in the near future.

PiBrat: "There are some of us, east and west, that are not only Nic or DOH".

What other non-starter words of appeasement will you have?

Any other words of wisdom?

 

[Res Judicata]

Stop asking questions and lay our YOUR plans for change and I will consider them as I see no hope for change outside of the courts.

If you can't do that, move along.

Stop the full court scab press on the West, pull your head out of your ass, abide by your agreements, stop the insane lawsuits, accept effing reality, and get a decent contract!

Are those concepts for change REALLY that hard to grasp?

 

[A320 Driver]

Stop the full court scab press on the West, pull your head out of your ass, abide by your agreements, stop the insane lawsuits, accept effing reality, and get a decent contract!

Are those concepts for change REALLY that hard to grasp?

Nothing hard to grasp here. Brat asked a reasonable question about moving forward. He has asked this many times as have I. We have made suggestions on several occasions and EVERY time we hear the same thing.

EAT THE NIC.

That's it. That is all you have to say. No discussion, no sharing of ideas, always the same thing. I see little difference in you, people like you and a screaming stomping child in a toy store.
Driver <_<

 

[Move2CLT]

Eat the Nic.

Oh, sorry, you said that already.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nothing hard to grasp here. Brat asked a reasonable question about moving forward. He has asked this many times as have I. We have made suggestions on several occasions and EVERY time we hear the same thing.

Actually, what you often hear is that USAPA made sure there could be no further negotiation between east and west so it's "eat the Nic". I realize that it's nearly impossible for an easties to blame USAPA and other easties, but the east pilots conjured up a monster that has so far done nothing but spend a fortune on legal bills and gotten you slapped with an injunction. In exchange for what? Certainly not cheaper. Not more transparent. Not responsible to the pilots. Not able to get a contract.

Maybe if the east would fix the mess they created instead of begging the westies to get you out of it...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Actually, what you often hear is that USAPA made sure there could be no further negotiation between east and west so it's "eat the Nic". I realize that it's nearly impossible for an easties to blame USAPA and other easties, but the east pilots conjured up a monster that has so far done nothing but spend a fortune on legal bills and gotten you slapped with an injunction. In exchange for what? Certainly not cheaper. Not more transparent. Not responsible to the pilots. Not able to get a contract.

Maybe if the east would fix the mess they created instead of begging the westies to get you out of it...

Jim

Nice revision of what actually happened. The reality is, the meeting at WYE RIVER was pressed by ALPA, because they knew both sides were in need of a middle ground. The west insured they had nobody to speak for them, as did ALPA when the situation digressed to where the East pilots voted ALPA off the property.



Bill_Wilder says:
August 19, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Mr. Vasin, (if that should be Capt. Vasin, I apologize)

The simple answer to your question is no, I would not (and did not in 2007) sue ALPA because ALPA is not a party to the arbitration proceeding that produced the Nicolau Award. The East and West MEC’s were the parties.

For that reason, we filed suit against the West MEC to overturn the award on the ground that it was contrary to the arbitration agreement (ALPA Merger Policy.) We did not allege a “flawed process” but that the award was contrary to ALPA Merger Policy.

You and your attorneys sought to dismiss that lawsuit by removing it to federal court, arguing that it actually constituted a DFR claim against ALPA. The federal court rejected that argument and granted our motion to remand the case to state court. (Federal courts do not remand meritless cases to state court, they dismiss them.) So in the only disputed motion on the lawsuit, the West MEC and its lawyers lost. Those are the facts about the lawsuit.

I obviously cannot state why the West MEC refused to engage the East MEC at Wye River on its proposal to modify the Nicolau Award in settlement of the dispute. You have confirmed, however, that the West MEC did refuse to engage in that effort.

I agree that further “tit for tat” isn’t productive. I may have done that with earlier posters, although I wasn’t meaning to.

As I stated above, my opinion that the judge’s ruling is contrary to law does not go to the real issue of the dispute facing the East and West pilots. (And of course one attorney’s position is hardly the same effect as rulings by a court.)

I view the extreme positions on both sides to be self-destructive. It is apparent that by its actions to this point (leaving aside the DFR issue), that USAPA has only further harmed the effort to resolve these issues and allow the US Airways pilots to move on as a united group.

Perhaps USAPA will realize that and now try to find some way to reconcile the two sides over the Nicolau Award and move to a combined CBA. (Using the East’s Wye River approach would seem to be the best way to do that.)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Tell ya what BS - why don't you post the east's "proposal" at Wye. (hint: it started with DOH)

Interesting what even your hero stated toward the end:

I view the extreme positions on both sides to be self-destructive. It is apparent that by its actions to this point (leaving aside the DFR issue), that USAPA has only further harmed the effort to resolve these issues and allow the US Airways pilots to move on as a united group.

So what say you BS - is Wilder right or is USAPA "the best money" you've ever spent. Your hero seems to disagree with that.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Nothing hard to grasp here. Brat asked a reasonable question about moving forward. He has asked this many times as have I. We have made suggestions on several occasions and EVERY time we hear the same thing.

EAT THE NIC.

That's it. That is all you have to say. No discussion, no sharing of ideas, always the same thing. I see little difference in you, people like you and a screaming stomping child in a toy store.
Driver <_<

Eat the Nic. There is nothing else to say. You and any other east pilot can make as many suggestions as you want. You are going to get the same answer. Eat the Nic. You ordered the meal. How many times do you have to hear it?

When usapa came to be that is what we were told. The east went into Rice, DEN, WYE telling us to eat DOH/LOS. That did not work. Next was usapa. The east is the majority, the east controls things and the east is going to do what you want. Eat DOH. Came to PHX very confident in your position. Negotiate seniority like a crew meal. Almost 4 years later now you guys are looking for ideas and a way to move forward. The east pilots made that decision in 2007 when you walked away from JNC.

The east pilots brought this on yourselves. It has cost you and the west a lot and it is going to continue to cost you. Are you guys just that slow of learners? 4 years of asking and you keep getting the same answer. 4 more years and you are going to get the same answer. East the Nic!

Or you can think of it as accepting your obligation and living up to your word. As a group you agreed to final and binding arbitration. The west is doing that. Do you not understand this is about honor and ones word?

 

[cleardirect]

Nice revision of what actually happened. The reality is, the meeting at WYE RIVER was pressed by ALPA, because they knew both sides were in need of a middle ground. The west insured they had nobody to speak for them, as did ALPA when the situation digressed to where the East pilots voted ALPA off the property.



As I stated above, my opinion that the judge’s ruling is contrary to law does not go to the real issue of the dispute facing the East and West pilots. (And of course one attorney’s position is hardly the same effect as rulings by a court.)

I view the extreme positions on both sides to be self-destructive. It is apparent that by its actions to this point (leaving aside the DFR issue), that USAPA has only further harmed the effort to resolve these issues and allow the US Airways pilots to move on as a united group.

Perhaps USAPA will realize that and now try to find some way to reconcile the two sides over the Nicolau Award and move to a combined CBA. (Using the East’s Wye River approach would seem to be the best way to do that.)

Strange way of looking at things. The east pilots created usapa in the back of a van. East pilot wrote the C&BL. East pilots voted for usapa. How the heck do you come up with the west pilots insuring we had no one to speak for us. You guys have a real problem accepting any responsibility for anything don't you?

Using your logic you would blame the guy for getting beat up by the mugger because he would not just hand over the money to the thief. According to you obviously he brought it on himself. usapa= east pilots have harmed the effort to move forward. Listen to the word of your own boy.

 

[fatherabraham]

My opinions of last couple days post.
1) A few east posters appear despondent over Clt judge ruling.
2) Seems all west posters are in the " I told you so " or " winning euphoria " mindset.

I'm of a " who gives a F " attitude. Here is why:
1) Nothing has changed!
2) Mgt asked for a fight and some took up the offer, others as usual let others do the ugly work.
3) Mgt knew the cost < engagement .
4) Ditto on some folk.
5) Just another box filled on this extremely long road to resolution.
6) Foolish for any party in this engagement to giggle like a school girl < final resolution.
7) Loa 93 results will quickly dwarf these ramblings.

Fire away 🙂


FA

 

[Pi brat]

Any other words of wisdom?

Yeah, look up the definition of plans, because there is not a single one in there. It's just the same "old woe is me, you screwed us" whining that gets rehashed over and over.

If your plan for change starts with the east just dropping DOH tomorrow and accepting the Nic, it isn't going to happen. Maybe with a loss on LOA 93, maybe a card drive for ALPA, maybe some unseen event, but I still doubt it. The number of guys that feel that the Nic screws them too much still outweighs the number of guys who just want a contract, especially one that we can get from this company today. Then you have the very large number of east guys that just don't give a ####. That's just the reality. I might be better off with the Nic and a new contract, I'd have to see the contract, but most of the guys that are active won't feel that way. Lack of integrity, low life, cheater, whatever you think, it is the truth and me telling you truth is doing you a favor, not making me the bad guy.

So, with that and the fact that there is no one to negotiate with the west and that anything the east would do OTHER than accepting the Nic would be met with the same response from the west, WE'RE STUCK. We wait it out for years as the legal battles grind out, consuming millions, while millions go towards better bonuses for the bosses.

Have a good life.

 

[Pi brat]

Maybe if the east would fix the mess they created instead of begging the westies to get you out of it...

Jim

You can drop the "begging the westies to get you out of it..." crap. I'm not begging them for anything, I'm trying to figure out if they would support a more moderate leader that would try to do what you say above, or if they prefer things the way they are because they feel it is a shorter way to the Nic. That's it and you #### stirring helps nothing.

 

[Pi brat]

Fire away 🙂


FA

Nothing to fire away at, seems like a pretty good summary to me. I think #7 will be the understatement of the year, no matter which way it goes! Of course if the east loses the westies will probably crash the server.