US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

See, you've figured it out as well. Nic comes first then everything else can follow.

+1 btw

Isn't it a shame you can only give yourself 1 of them. But I suppose it depends on how many screen names you have.

 

[mrbreeze]

Isn't it a shame you can only give yourself 1 of them. But I suppose it depends on how many screen names you have.

He thinks he is the star of Nickalodeon!

 

[Zone5]

As long as you put "Win" in quotes, it appears to depend on the perspective of the poster. For some, remaining separate until they retire, even if it means remaining on LOA 93 pay, is viewed as a "Win". I suspect that the undercurrent running beneath the surface is a belief that the East will get the preponderance of the widebody flying, meaning that remaining separate will let them capture not just the east attrition (which is usually overstated) but a large majority of widebody-based upward movement. Any future real growth would just be the icing on the cake

At the other end are those who would like to have a better contract once the courts settle the seniority issue. They'll live with the courts' decision whatever it is.

In between are people who cover pretty much the range in between the two extremes.

Jim

I think this is a pretty good synopsis of the East sentiment in general. The question becomes how many pilots are in each category. Until there is an issue requiring rank and file ratification we will never really know. I don't think you can judge the overall pilot sentiment very accurately from the handful of posters on this board.

seajay

 

[Zone5]

So Millions of Dollars in legal fees to remain on LOA93?

If that's what victory looks like then I'd sure hate to see defeat.

I thought the stated goal was Date of Hire Seniority and an improved contract????

I don't know, I guess I just don't have the same "Filter" work/pay wise as a pilot. This whole thing started 7 years ago and US was knocking on heaven's door. I was 51 at the time. So in my dumb customer brain I'm thinking, "I got 8 years left, maybe 13 so how do I leverage the situation to my advantage." I'm sorry but 6 years at rock bottom wages plus dues toward a legal challenge that ensured I'd not get a penny more in hourly wage and a bit of upward mobility seniority wise is not my idea of an astute business decision.

Between attrition and more wide body flying I should have been able to pick up whatever seniority position I would lose with NIC, Plus I'd get a contract with a few percent wage bump per year for the remainder of my career, allowing me to invest a little more in order to ease the haircut I got when I surrendered my pension in order to keep the job I have or am I missing something?

Each million dollars in legal fees costs an East pilot approximately $250.00, not much in the big scheme of things. I think what you fail to grasp is the heart felt and deep seated value the East pilots have regarding the value of their seniority. It's not really about the money for most. It's about the NIC being one more kick in the ass to far, the last straw, the ultimate insult, the final degradation.

seajay

 

[cactusboy53]

So Millions of Dollars in legal fees to remain on LOA93? If that's what victory looks like then I'd sure hate to see defeat. I thought the stated goal was Date of Hire Seniority and an improved contract????........

Ah wise SparrowHawk these are keen observations. However you forget that the legal fees spent by USAPA are funded by both the East & West pilots. I "contributed" over $1745 to USAPA last year (or face certain termination for non-payment of dues to my "union". NOTE: an event that ALPA never has done. I believe Mike Cleary still owes ALPA over $1000 in dues prior to the release of ALPA as the CBA). Now I am but a lowly first officer.

If you guess-timate 1600 West pilots (1/2 Captains, 1/2 FO's) and average $1500 "contributions" for FO's & $3000 "contributions" for Captains per year: This "entitles" USAPA to 3.6 MILLION dollars of dues money.

USAPA is in the RED already. There is a misspent 10+ MILLON dollars that SSM&P are walking out the door with. As long as USAPA remains funded (and the silent majority remain silent), this little circus won't come to an end very soon.

Hey! I have an idea. In the interest of fairness, why don't we take 2/3 to 3/4 of the West dues money and place it in an interest bearing trust? The East can assess their group for the funds needed to complete the DOH litigation as needed. The funds in the trust grow and remain untouched until this mess is cleaned up. What do you say fellas??

 

[cactusboy53]

This link was on another thread, but it bears repeating (several times!): WE WERE WARNED.

 

[prechilill]

Each million dollars in legal fees costs an East pilot approximately $250.00, not much in the big scheme of things. I think what you fail to grasp is the heart felt and deep seated value the East pilots have regarding the value of their seniority. It's not really about the money for most. It's about the NIC being one more kick in the ass to far, the last straw, the ultimate insult, the final degradation.

seajay

Exactly! Thanks for clarifying what others (easties) refuse to admit- this is all about the Nicolau and not ALPA. So here is one west pilots POV:
Me seniority is not for you to take because you felt you've been "kicked in the ass" your whole career. Your career is not my problem so leave me alone. You guys have had two seniority integrations that didn't go Date of Hire and the one that did there was a lifetime of bitching by the Piedmont pilots about it. You all even advocated to have Nicolau as the arbitrator for a SECOND time and on the first go around with Nicolau you guys DIDN'T WANT DOH for the Trump pilots.
It is pretty obvious you are in it for yourselves and now are bitching because you didn't get my seniority and our captain upgrades. And what followed after the Nicolau is unconscionable: you used liberal labor laws against us to try a cram down. Now that that tactic isn't working you guys are now talking about "negotiating a compromise" and such. Unbelievable. Enjoy LOA 93- when December '12 rolls around we have our own retirements and outside of your union's complete incompetence to negotiate new pay rates we on the west are quite happy with things going forward. Regardless of how this plays out with AMR you're not stealing our upgrades.
Oh, and before you launch in to the Conditions and Restrictions bull crap I have one question for you to answer about that. If your C&R's are so good why not attach them to the Nicolau list?

 

[prechilill]

This link was on another thread, but it bears repeating (several times!): WE WERE WARNED.

This link merits another look...

 

[jimntx]

Each million dollars in legal fees costs an East pilot approximately $250.00, not much in the big scheme of things. I think what you fail to grasp is the heart felt and deep seated value the East pilots have regarding the value of their seniority. It's not really about the money for most. It's about the NIC being one more kick in the ass to far, the last straw, the ultimate insult, the final degradation.

seajay

I notice that none of you who object to the egregious unfairness of the Nicolau arbitration decision ever use the phrase "the unfair Nicolau arbitration that we demanded. Grown-up people accept the fact that actions have consequences. YOUR side of the argument demanded binding arbitration. The fact that you didn't like the decision has no bearing on the fact that A. You demanded it and B. Binding Arbitration means just that...binding.

Binding Arbitration: The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard.

Note that it does not say "who agree in advance to comply with the award if they happen to like it."

 

[apollo]

I notice that none of you who object to the egregious unfairness of the Nicolau arbitration decision ever use the phrase "the unfair Nicolau arbitration that we demanded. Grown-up people accept the fact that actions have consequences. YOUR side of the argument demanded binding arbitration. The fact that you didn't like the decision has no bearing on the fact that A. You demanded it and B. Binding Arbitration means just that...binding.

Binding Arbitration: The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard.

Note that it does not say "who agree in advance to comply with the award if they happen to like it."

You are an f/a for American, your company is going bankrupt. US Airways will save you. New hire US Airways f/a's that went through ground school last year are ecstatic they will go above you in seniority.

 

[prechilill]

You are an f/a for American, your company is going bankrupt. US Airways will save you. New hire US Airways f/a's that went through ground school last year are ecstatic they will go above you in seniority.

Wait: What happened to the "gold standard: of Date of Hire???? 😱

You USAPians are so transparent...

 

[aquagreen73s]

Exactly! Thanks for clarifying what others (easties) refuse to admit- this is all about the Nicolau and not ALPA. So here is one west pilots POV:
Me seniority is not for you to take because you felt you've been "kicked in the ass" your whole career. Your career is not my problem so leave me alone. You guys have had two seniority integrations that didn't go Date of Hire and the one that did there was a lifetime of bitching by the Piedmont pilots about it. You all even advocated to have Nicolau as the arbitrator for a SECOND time and on the first go around with Nicolau you guys DIDN'T WANT DOH for the Trump pilots.
It is pretty obvious you are in it for yourselves and now are bitching because you didn't get my seniority and our captain upgrades. And what followed after the Nicolau is unconscionable: you used liberal labor laws against us to try a cram down. Now that that tactic isn't working you guys are now talking about "negotiating a compromise" and such. Unbelievable. Enjoy LOA 93- when December '12 rolls around we have our own retirements and outside of your union's complete incompetence to negotiate new pay rates we on the west are quite happy with things going forward. Regardless of how this plays out with AMR you're not stealing our upgrades.
Oh, and before you launch in to the Conditions and Restrictions bull crap I have one question for you to answer about that. If your C&R's are so good why not attach them to the Nicolau list?

+1

This link merits another look...

Agreed: http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/WeWereWarned.pdf

 

[Phoenix]

Could someone explain to me the series of events that would have to take place in order for the East to "Win"?

To me it looks like the legal pinball machine is flashing <GAME OVER>! However I get lost in a lot of the nuances of the various court battles.

When you tie two cats together by their tails, you get what you get. Its a merger Piney.. no one ever bothers to figure out which side won... eventually the fight appears to be over, but then something else pops up and the fight intensity resumes. There are Northwest/Republic pilots in nursing homes now that are still threatening to beat each other with their canes and walkers.

Both sides are making a lot of noise but the truth is that everyone still has exactly what they were entitled to before the merger was announced. And in this economy, for an entire work force of such a large corporation to remain whole, that in itself is a win.


If you think you are seeing drama now, just stick around to watch what happens to the industry standard wages and contract rules when age 65 retirements come in such huge volumes and speed that it exceeds our country's ability to replace the pilot force with American citizens. The airline employee labor force is one of the few labor forces that has not yet been harmed by the massive influx of foreign laborers that are willing to work for dramatically lower wages. As you once famously said when Wolf and Gangwal were taking advantage of 911, you aint' seen nothing yet.

 

[cactusboy53]

You are an f/a for American, your company is going bankrupt. US Airways will save you. New hire US Airways f/a's that went through ground school last year are ecstatic they will go above you in seniority.

What a coincidence! You are a former US Air pilot. Your company was in bankruptcy (Chapter 11 and most assuredly steps away from Chapter 7). America West saved you. The most junior employed AWA pilot (O'Dell) was placed junior to the most junior employed US Air pilot (Monda). The furloughed pilots (none at AWA, BTW) that had NO CHANCE of returning to the dieing US Air were placed below pilot O'Dell. As your good luck & fortune would have it, the NEW US Airways thrived and brought back all of those FURLOUGHED pilots. Isn't that great?!!? Chump.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Both sides are making a lot of noise but the truth is that everyone still has exactly what they were entitled to before the merger was announced. And in this economy, for an entire work force of such a large corporation to remain whole, that in itself is a win.

America West had 144 planes before the merger and was hiring. In a showing of good will, we agreed to suspend hiring so that East furloughees could return and then we drew the minimum fleet line on the West at 122 - that's a 15% reduction.

What did we get in return from the East?

Answer: DOH cram down, RICO lawsuits, union representation solely by the East that is so bad and so incompetent that we'd be far better having no union . . . I could go on.

The Nic is it.

Enjoy LOA93 in the meantime.