US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Poor BS, grabbing onto any straw to defend himself. The only "could" is in the uncertainty that USAPA's proposal will survive negotiations intact. The court clearly said that it WAS less favorable to the west than Nic, and the 9th clearly said that if it survived the negotiations intact it WOULD cause the accompanying harm to the west. Put that in your pipe and smoke it instead of that stuff you've been smoking...while you sit in the corner with the pointy hat on.

By the way, I said that USAPA's current proposal would harm the west according to the 9th. You called that a lie but it wasn't, as I demonstrated. So the apology from you is in order and I'm waiting. Since you're in the dunce corner, raise you hand before speaking.

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Poor BS, grabbing onto any straw to defend himself. The only "could" is in the uncertainty that USAPA's proposal will survive negotiations intact. The court clearly said that it WAS less favorable to the west than Nic, and the 9th clearly said that if it survived the negotiations intact it WOULD cause the accompanying harm to the west. Put that in your pipe and smoke it instead of that stuff you've been smoking...while you sit in the corner with the pointy hat on.

Jim

So the 9th Court of Appeals is a straw? Joe! Here you go again, quibbling about what the 9th meant when you know what they meant. They NEVER said anything about anything surviving anything. That is YOUR opinion. They clearly said the Nicolau may not be the end product, AND it may not be the harm the west imagines it is. This is what gets you and Leonidas in hot water time and again. I read what they say VERBATIM and quote VERBATIM. You try and become a constitutional scholar and interpret, failing miserably in the process.

 

[Injunction junction]

Don't waste your time, Jim. Swan's not worth it. Not interested in facts. Just spews maniacal absurdity and claims it to be fact. He then calls those with truth and facts liars because he has no other defense against his own stupidity.

The real problem is he lives in hope and wish land. Wish that he can get doh and hopes that Kasher came in his way. Well Not going to get to DOH and Kasher came in already for the company. Then his repeated posting of a one statement by the 9th circuit is further proof of that hope and wish mentality. The largest potato on the 9th's table was RIPENESS, a fact that he seems to leave out over and over.

There is another merger in the mix and LCC wants to move fwd. The DJ contrary to swan and his hope and wish theory is not about internal union bullshit but rather the rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved. Can lcc be held harmless by not accepting its agreed upon terms as outlined in the transition agreement and signed by all parties. Answer is no and with that game over.

Injunction

 

[Pi brat]

Absolutely NOTHING to do with ripeness. Nothing.

BS,

Was going to put this in another PM, but several east guys seem to have heartburn with my take on this, so let me just throw this out.

First of all, you really don't need to worry about my opinion as I don't think a single leader at USAPA has ever listened to a word I've said. With that in mind, isn't it better to throw things out now, and look at them rather than just see what happens? If I'm wrong, fine. If not it might be a good time to look at our position.

The way I read the 9th it does have to do with ripeness. It's like the court told the west pilots that they were trying to prevail on something that may never happen, and for many reasons. Even though USAPA said they were going to do something that they viewed as harmful, for many reasons that may not come to fruition, so they had to wait and see what negotiations produced and then see if they were harmed. Just because the 9th said it may not be the Nic, does not translate into USAPA can do anything they want. The court concluded that any number of results COULD come from negotiations, and one could be a solution that while not the Nic, not as harmful as they view DOH.

Now the other side of that coin is what rights/responsibilities do the west pilots have? Why is section 22 different to all other sections? Why are they entitled to the Nic forever? What if we get to a point that we actually don't ratify a contract with the Nic in it, can we change it then?

I guess from my POV and from talking to several guys on both sides of the argument, USAPA has the right to negotiate any section of the contract. With that right goes the responsibility to represent all members fairly. If we negotiate a contract with DOH and it gets ratified, will that pass DFR II? I don't know, and that opinion is generally split right down the east west line.

There could be things out there that make this all moot. SWA seems to have found a way around all of this and McCaskill Bond. Will that be in our future?

 

[Black Swan]

Consider the source.

The source that knows what the term FROZEN means in the USAirways East Contract versus a Leonidas cheerleader. I love how Boeing Boy dances around FROZEN too! Love how he says it means all of a sudden NEGOTIATE and Nic4 his lap dog buys it. Kasher is going to crush that theory.

 

[Injunction junction]

You insisted on being stupid so here it is - from the majority opinion:

"Five months after certification, USAPA presented a seniority proposal to the airline. The proposal incorporated date-ofhire principles. Although the proposal contained some protections for West Pilots, it was not nearly as favorable to West Pilots as the Nicolau Award. The airline had not yet responded to the proposal when the district court entered its permanent injunction."

"We conclude that this case presents contingencies that could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the accompanying injury."

So there you have it. The 9th said that USAPA's proposal "was not nearly as favorable to West pilots" as the Nic, and that USAPA's proposal if in the contract would cause that "accompanying injury".

Jim

As I stated before Jim that Clown lives in hope and wish land thus he has no concept of what the ENTIRE ruling stated.

Injunction

 

[Pi brat]

That explains why you automatically assume anything I say is wrong... The former pilot is confused.

Jim

Gee, how could I make that mistake. I corrected it. Honorary westie maybe................

 

[Black Swan]

The real problem is he lives in hope and wish land. Wish that he can get doh and hopes that Kasher came in his way. Well Not going to get to DOH and Kasher came in already for the company. Then his repeated posting of a one statement by the 9th circuit is further proof of that hope and wish mentality. The largest potato on the 9th's table was RIPENESS, a fact that he seems to leave out over and over.

There is another merger in the mix and LCC wants to move fwd. The DJ contrary to swan and his hope and wish theory is not about internal union bullshit but rather the rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved. Can lcc be held harmless by not accepting its agreed upon terms as outlined in the transition agreement and signed by all parties. Answer is no and with that game over.

Injunction

Aquaman, did Harper tell you to take the new persona and to muzzle Move2Clt before Silver came to court? You got made as one of the founders.

You keep saying the 9th ruled on ONLY ripeness. I say you paid for the entire road trip to SF after the Wake debacle, and didn't count on the 9th saying this as the piece de resistance! This is one more example of "ALL THE RISK LIES WITH THE WEST....." I bet the West legal braintrust practically crapped themselves when the 9th dropped this one!

[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[Injunction junction]

We have absolutely NOTHING other than the big COULD. I COULD shoot you, but I won't. USAPA COULD put out a proposal that gives Flight Attendants pilot seniority, but they won't. Judge Silver COULD rule USAPA has to reorder the seniority list by birthdate. COULD is NOT DOES as you imply. The bottom line. NO APOLOGY, your case is weak, at best. Then, the DFR case would have to go to court, and they would have to PROVE that the COULD became harm.
When COULD is replaced with DOES, you have a case. Dismissed

[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Hey top clown, do some research prior to making a fool of yourself over and over. A declaratory judgement is merely an judgement by the court that states each parties responsibilities and thats it. Judge Silver will NOT be ruling on seniority as that has already been done via arbitration. There are questions before her that LCC wants answers to and like I said the big one is can we be sued your honor if we do honor our agreement. That is where you need to focus your attention because if she tells Lcc yes you can and I believe that she will, the case for usapa is over. Lcc will simply refuse to use any other list thus placing usloppy right smack dab in the middle. In other words there is nothing to appeal they just wont use anything else. Now without leverage and couple that with the impending Kasher loss announcement and you get the perfect BALL IN YOUR COURT set up.

Injunction

 

[Injunction junction]

Aquaman, did Harper tell you to take the new persona and to muzzle Move2Clt before Silver came to court? You got made as one of the founders.

You keep saying the 9th ruled on ONLY ripeness. I say you paid for the entire road trip to SF after the Wake debacle, and didn't count on the 9th saying this as the piece de resistance! This is one more example of "ALL THE RISK LIES WITH THE WEST....." I bet the West legal braintrust practically crapped themselves when the 9th dropped this one!

[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

I have no idea who any of them are and I did not attend the party as I had to work. What I have stated to you is legal fact take it or leave I really could care less. I seem to think you enjoy your wages and benefits. Lets look at it this way, where is doh today if its so easy and you think you've won something???? Why are you still on bankruptcy era wages if you have won anything??

Injunction

 

[BoeingBoy]

So the 9th Court of Appeals is a straw?

No - latching on to "could" is a straw. Especially so since I was talking about USAPA's current proposal, not some mythical change of heart USAPA may have.

I said that the 9th said that the current USAPA proposal would harm the west. You retorted with:

Where do they say the proposal would harm the West? They said everything but. You tell lies. You just absolutely lied. Show where the 9th said they will be harmed, the majority opinion. The ones that MAKE THE RULING, not the dissent. You can bang around with the dissent all you want. They don't count.

Now I've shown you the 9th words saying that the current USAPA proposal harms the west. So off you go on a wild tangent about what may or may not be some future proposal. That wasn't what I said and you responded to by calling me a liar. So who's the liar???

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The source that knows what the term FROZEN means in the USAirways East Contract versus a Leonidas cheerleader.

Oh yes. According to you it has a uniform meaning throughout the contract. Oh wait, that's not right. Well, it - or rather wage freeze has a definition in the dictionary so that's all that matters. But don't ask BS to point out that definition in the contract - it's not there.

BS, I offered to tell you exactly why the freeze language is in that portion of LOA 93 but you haven't taken me up on it. It also why the east pilots have the best chance of getting something out of Kasher - not everything you predict, but something. But I can't fix stupid...and apparently neither can the 9th.

Jim

 

[Claxon]

The real problem is he lives in hope and wish land. Wish that he can get doh and hopes that Kasher came in his way. Well Not going to get to DOH and Kasher came in already for the company. Then his repeated posting of a one statement by the 9th circuit is further proof of that hope and wish mentality. The largest potato on the 9th's table was RIPENESS, a fact that he seems to leave out over and over.

There is another merger in the mix and LCC wants to move fwd. The DJ contrary to swan and his hope and wish theory is not about internal union bullshit but rather the rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved. Can lcc be held harmless by not accepting its agreed upon terms as outlined in the transition agreement and signed by all parties. Answer is no and with that game over.

Injunction

The real problem is the western group needs to stop stealing and get in line with the other groups eastern and western. The western pilots are trying to steal something that isn't theirs. Franke taught this to all the management, early in the days of when this cancerous America West was founded. The entire organization tried to undermine the rest of the true airlines that paid good salaries and benefits. Unfortunately, this disgusting institution is today taking down AMR and its people. It is truly a shame they did not go out of business years ago, or be reformed into an honest airline like Continental did to PeopleExpress and their disgusting way of business.

 

[Black Swan]

Hey top clown, do some research prior to making a fool of yourself over and over. A declaratory judgement is merely an judgement by the court that states each parties responsibilities and thats it. Judge Silver will NOT be ruling on seniority as that has already been done via arbitration. There are questions before her that LCC wants answers to and like I said the big one is can we be sued your honor if we do honor our agreement. That is where you need to focus your attention because if she tells Lcc yes you can and I believe that she will, the case for usapa is over. Lcc will simply refuse to use any other list thus placing usloppy right smack dab in the middle. In other words there is nothing to appeal they just wont use anything else. Now without leverage and couple that with the impending Kasher loss announcement and you get the perfect BALL IN YOUR COURT set up.

Injunction

So, in your poor understanding of labor relations, you think that stands? You are saying a corporation CAN TELL A UNION how to negotiate seniority??? This is what gets you and Leonidas in hot water over and over. You may be able to handle a simple divorce or personal injury case, but when you stick your nose into labor relations, you are clearly over your head. Right back to the 9th, which clearly understood RIPENESS when you took it too far and went ahead with damage before it happened, if it ever happened. Back to the analogy: Can you go to court to sue for damages in a car accident BEFORE it happens? just because you THINK it is going to happen? You tell me counselor. You obviously failed that part of law school, and your backup Jacobs did too. Unbelievable somebody didn't catch that big F up. The 2 MILLION F UP! Round 2, another MAJOR Leonidas misfire. Just because you live in a right to work state does not mean a company can meddle in an internal union issue and TELL it how to propose a seniority list just because they or you are afraid, or don't understand it. Just because you don't get that concept is totally fine with us, because it will just be another spank job. We will just wait for the NMB parachute team to suit up and get ready for another potential drop into an AZ courtroom gone mad.
I say again, just because your crackpot Wake didn't understand labor and how bargaining positions are just that, and the company or court CANNOT dictate internal union bargaining proposals doesn't mean the rest of us and the 9th don't get it. I guarantee you if Silver doesn't get it, she is going to the 9th just like the Desert Judge. This will be what comes , again.

CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

 

[Injunction junction]

The real problem is the western group needs to stop stealing and get in line with the other groups eastern and western. The western pilots are trying to steal something that isn't theirs. Franke taught this to all the management, early in the days of when this cancerous America West was founded. The entire organization tried to undermine the rest of the true airlines that paid good salaries and benefits. Unfortunately, this disgusting institution is today taking down AMR and its people. It is truly a shame they did not go out of business years ago, or be reformed into an honest airline like Continental did to PeopleExpress and their disgusting way of business.

Stealing?? What are you kidding?? Stole what??? AAA pilot group was furlough 40% when this thing happened and they had NO, ZERO expectation of a pilot job at the former usair. Now I have to be stealing in order to preserve my career?? I have to just bend over and say "here claxton take my career its ok I can get another one" or better " I can wait and just fk someone else over like you are trying to fk me over" ??? Is that how it works in your world??? This is 2011 not 1978 we had a merger policy and we FOLLOWED IT. It was you and the east that decided to pick up all your marbles in leave the game because you didnt like how it all turned out. Frankly I dont give a damn about how it was done 30yrs ago! We had an agreement and you broke it. Now you want to talk about disgusting? The way you in the east make deals then break them is disgusting and is a prime reason you are right now sitting at industry bottom with the worst contract in aviation.

We in are 2011 talk to me in those terms, companies like peoples express, continental, twa pan am braniff dont exist today in 2011. This is not 1978 WAKE UP. Talking about stealing, its the east that have stolen 5yrs of my career with dishonesty.

Injunction