US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Iclubbabyseals]

Binding arbitration is an arm of the court yet your side just doesn't get that.

No, you don't get it.

Binding arbitration is a tool. It is not an end in itself.

On top of that is the fact that that particular tool can only be applied to the circumstances (transition agreement, ALPA) surrounding it. As soon as the circumstances change (no transition agreement, ALPA), the tool is put back in the woodshed, no matter how much it was used.

The transition agreement has been fatally amended.

 

[Black Swan]

I don't know you nor do I want to. Binding arbitration is an arm of the court yet you crapped on that pretty well.

This West pilot group has the worst reading comprehension I have EVER dealt with. You should have been coaches at Penn State with the denial you display. I see nothing, I hear nothing..... Here it is, one more time Rookie, read carefully. Read the part where it says IF PRESENTED coach. Do you think the 9th was of the mind it might not ever be presented, and that was legal?????


[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated.


NEXT, coach Rookie Jr.......


Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.



I can see why there are scandals out there, the denial is UNBELIEVABLE in the face of the evidence contrary. No matter how many Leonidas get togethers you have, you can't undo the ruling of the 9th and the fact you can't undo the fact a group of people cannot understand plain English.

 

[No Land Green]

Nope- there you are wrong. The first joint contract is very different and must meet a standard different from that of subsequent negotiations.

We shall see...........

NLG out

 

[Black Swan]

You are absolutely correct and it was followed. Now, does it say that result can NEVER be changed? It also has min fleet in it. Can they never be changed?

What can and cannot be changed? Looks like a court will decide, not you, me or anyone else on here.

The court already decided. If Silver gets involved with an INTERNAL UNION issue, it will go right to the 9th again. And we all know how that turned out. The Desert Judge got SPANKED by the young clerks!

"http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/06/04/09-16564.pdf.

 

[Pi brat]

The court already decided. If Silver gets involved with an INTERNAL UNION issue, it will go right to the 9th again. And we all know how that turned out. The Desert Judge got SPANKED by the young clerks!

"http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/06/04/09-16564.pdf.

Yes, once on ripeness. I have read everything you have posted and come to some of the same conclusions, but we are biased just like the west is. This is going to court again, and who knows what will happen there. The west is just as confident that their reading of the 9th's footnotes is correct and yours is wrong. I really don't KNOW, I have some opinions and questions, but don't KNOW. When I read Judge Silvers transcript from way back, the overwhelming impression I got was that she was pushing the company to negotiate. The west guys seemed to think she was telling the company that if they knew they had to use the Nic. Only she knows for sure what she meant and I haven't seen her on here.

It really doesn't matter. Neither side is going to back down, it is going to slog through the courts, then we will deal with it and one side will have some big I told you so's. Just like with LOA 93 ;-).

 

[Phoenix]

Binding arbitration is an arm of the court yet your side just doesn't get that.

That's what I thought. No disappointment here. When you figure out the terms of this game you will figure it out.

 

[Boeing Driver]

Because they did not "keep THIS PLACE going", they kept the place that got aquired by THIS PLACE going.

Typical scumbag AWA convoluted logic to justify stealing jobs from US Airways East pilots.

Boeing Driver

 

[nycbusdriver]

I just got back from the Hennepin County Library and while I was there I happened to be sitting next to a Mesaba Flight Attendant. So now you're thinking "So What"!

Well let me tell ya, kids you're the laughing stock of aviation. Not your company, YOU!

Her words were, "what a bunch of idiots, it will never be solved". 3202 pages of the aviation version of the Jerry Springer show and I'm thinking she's right on the money with her comments.

Like any of us, east or west, care one whit what a Mesaba flight attendant thinks. Or, what you think for that matter.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Where is our constant companion Move2Clt?? :blink: :blink: :blink:

She'll be back shortly with yet another new, improved screen name

 

[Black Swan]

Yes, once on ripeness. I have read everything you have posted and come to some of the same conclusions, but we are biased just like the west is. This is going to court again, and who knows what will happen there. The west is just as confident that their reading of the 9th's footnotes is correct and yours is wrong. I really don't KNOW, I have some opinions and questions, but don't KNOW. When I read Judge Silvers transcript from way back, the overwhelming impression I got was that she was pushing the company to negotiate. The west guys seemed to think she was telling the company that if they knew they had to use the Nic. Only she knows for sure what she meant and I haven't seen her on here.

It really doesn't matter. Neither side is going to back down, it is going to slog through the courts, then we will deal with it and one side will have some big I told you so's. Just like with LOA 93 ;-).

Absolutely NOTHING to do with ripeness. Nothing. They were all over the fact the Nicolau does NOT have to be the final, and there might not be the harm the Leonidas Boogie Man can't get out of their heads. Read this. Again, the 9th: They clearly state the Nicolau may not be the final product, and the West may also not be harmed like they claim.

[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

That was not just about ripeness. It was a clear elucidation of the fact the final product may not (will not) be the Nicolau, and they still will not be harmed like they think. Remember, this is the ONLY group on the property that is contending a DOH list. EVERY OTHER group on the property went DOH, and there was no harm. Only this group thinks they are special.

 

[BoeingBoy]

the West may also not be harmed like they claim.

Yet the 9th made it abundantly clear that USAPA's current proposal DOES harm the west. Has USAPA given any indication at all that the current proposal will be modified in any way so it won't harm the west? It's been 1-1/2 years since the 9th's ruling - has USAPA done anything to eliminate the harm to the west that the 9th spoke of?

Jim

 

[Rookie Jr]

No, you don't get it.

Binding arbitration is a tool. It is not an end in itself.

On top of that is the fact that that particular tool can only be applied to the circumstances (transition agreement, ALPA) surrounding it. As soon as the circumstances change (no transition agreement, ALPA), the tool is put back in the woodshed, no matter how much it was used.

The transition agreement has been fatally amended.

Dream on. Keep making up the rules as you go along. Maybe you can convince someone to believe you. I certainly don't. Neither will the court.

 

[nycbusdriver]

In the Leonidas meeting we learned that the NAC has put forth a proposal. (according to Eric, passable) What will happen if the company accepts that proposal? This very well could happen. Will the "union" put it to a vote? Pretty hard not to if their proposal is accepted without counter. This all could end in a few weeks.

There are only two plausible reasons that the company might actually accept this NAC proposal (if it really exists at all.)

1. There is a merger coming in the near future, and the process is stilted by Tempe's inability to get the last merger completed. They need a contract to finally make the airline one airline, not two. (This is unlikely, IMHO.)

2. Kasher ruled in favor of the pilots, and the company needs the new contract to bring east pay down to earth from what LOA 84 pay rates would be. (This is more plausible.)

If Kasher has completed his work, or has at least gotten past the executive committee step, then ethically he should publish the award. There is no reason he should sit on it any longer.

 

[Black Swan]

Yet the 9th made it abundantly clear that USAPA's current proposal DOES harm the west. Has USAPA given any indication at all that the current proposal will be modified in any way so it won't harm the west? It's been 1-1/2 years since the 9th's ruling - has USAPA done anything to eliminate the harm to the west that the 9th spoke of?

Jim

You are the Joe Paterno of the group here. Like Joe, you should have left the game while you still had your wits about you.


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Where do they say the proposal would harm the West? They said everything but. You tell lies. You just absolutely lied. Show where the 9th said they will be harmed, the majority opinion. The ones that MAKE THE RULING, not the dissent. You can bang around with the dissent all you want. They don't count.

 

[Rookie Jr]

This West pilot group has the worst reading comprehension I have EVER dealt with. You should have been coaches at Penn State with the denial you display. I see nothing, I hear nothing..... Here it is, one more time Rookie, read carefully. Read the part where it says IF PRESENTED coach. Do you think the 9th was of the mind it might not ever be presented, and that was legal?????


[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated.


NEXT, coach Rookie Jr.......


Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.



I can see why there are scandals out there, the denial is UNBELIEVABLE in the face of the evidence contrary. No matter how many Leonidas get togethers you have, you can't undo the ruling of the 9th and the fact you can't undo the fact a group of people cannot understand plain English.

Comparing an opinion to a fact won't get you far. It is a fact that arbitration is used to settle disputes outside of the court system, widely recognized in the legal system and yet to be overturned.

Comparing west pilots to pedohpiles won't get you far either. We'll leave that (upskirt) little ditty to you easties.

Speaking of reading comprehension: We can't undo the ruling of the 9th? Do you even know what they ruled? Not ripe. That's it. Make it ripe, attempt a DOH list. Ripe. Undone. DFRII

You can keep coming up with all the absurd comparisons to arbitration vs ratification all you want. You reek of desperation and will soon have your ass handed to you by the court. Looking forward to that.