US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

The fact of the matter is usapa is the legally elected bargaining agent. As such it has the responsibility to bargain in good faith for ALL MEMBERS IT REPRESENTS.

Absolutely. Of course. Have you been reading the USAToday again?

To say usapa is not constrained in whatever proposals it offers is and absolute falsehood. It is constrained by the DFR it owes ALL members. The 9th reiterated this fact to usapa but you just don't seem to get it, or you are playing me with a feigned ignorance.

Of course they have a duty to fairly represent ALL members. Let me guess... The USAToday?

It has already been proven by jury trial, that every player is aware of, that the usapa DOH proposal fails that DFR.

Not the USAToday.. they have failed you this time. By the time a DFR trial is admitted into a court room, there are so many unknown events and circumstances yet to occur (not to mention the standard from the SCOTUS that Wake excluded) it is speculative at best that USAPA would be found guilty, but anything is worth a shot.

So, actually nine jurors and 5 federal judges have determined that usapa IS LEGAL to present a seniority proposal in keeping with its authority as CBA, just not the one they have presented to date, and oh, BTW, they inherited the Nic that they are trying to re-write from their predecessor.

We get it. You are trying to argue your case that USAPA is vile, evil, ugly, and illegal. The fact remains that no one has usurped the authority of bargaining agents to bargain.

 

[exB717Flyer]

No Sir! There is nothing in the Addington transcripts about ME. You said me. So, I'm waiting. I know a man of integrity would make claims he couldn't back up right?

First of all, if you did indeed vote for ALPA, thank you, but that's not enough. There's only two sides to this so-called seniority dispute so you're on one side or the other. Saying you don't agree with everything USAPA says doesn't make you any less part of the problem.

Worth it? I hope you cool off and return to reasonable thought before anything like that happens. Guys that think like you over here are who got us to where we are.

Au contraire, I've been a fairly non-emotional pragmatist in this game for many years. Back in 2002 I caught hell from my fellow TWA'ers when I dared to suggest joining the APA was the smart thing to do. Similarly, I caught hell from many AWAer's when I advocated joining USAPA from the get-go.

My pragmatism, however, can't possibly eliminate the anger I feel for the East's treacherous actions. As an Eastie if you don't think you're deserving of my scorn you'll have to prove you're taking action to make amends.

And BTW, so sorry I had to go to sleep and then commute to work. Next time I'll make sure to stay up all night and call in sick just so you won't have to post any more "I'm waitings".

 

[nic4us]

Very well, as you wish.



That is the real issue. Who can usurp the authority of a bargaining agent during bargaining?

The answere is,,,,since you have not been paying attention, and are still stuck in the Seeham, its just a crewmeal arguement,,,

The entity in which the agent wishes to entwine in their illegal proposal.


So, who can usurp the company's authority to flat out refuse to take part of an illegal enterprise?

 

[Black Swan]

If Silver rules in a manner not favorable to usapa, then usapa is done. They can appeal, but there are two problems with that,,,

1. They can appeal Silver's decision, but they can't appeal the company's position.
2. usapa would literally be going to the 9th and saying, "hey, 5 federal judges have now unanimously determined that what we are trying to do is a DFR, can you listen to us one more time and see if we can make that 8 federal judges"?

I think the much more likely scenario is that we end up in a card drive lead by east pilots to toss usapa to the curb, in an attempted to start everything all over again.

When merger speculation is thrown into the mix, it is likely we would be in a merger situation prior to any usapa appeal, if they were even granted one.

I don't see why USAPA would be done if she says the company accepted and has to use the Nic, and why the appeal? There is no need for any appeal unless the legal cadre says it is necessary. She has not stated that USAPA has to use the Nic as its' proposal. She stays away from the 9th if she makes no comment on USAPA s obligations, only the companys. If the company gets the rule and Silver says the Nic is what they use, they will never get an East vote that ratifies it.
If she says USAPA has to use it? Right to the 9th on appeal, and she is well aware of this. I pray she rules USAPA has to do the Nic, please say it Judge Silver. But I think she is smart, and saw the spank job Wake got for that error, so she will avoid that.
There is no court in the land that can make the East pilots ratify a contract with the Nic in it. Pay for longevity, and you have a deal with the Nic. If Kasher ever finds for the East favorably, then there absolutely will not be a contract with the Nic. no matter what anybody says. Stay tuned, you have years ahead of you, and me before this is resolved. Read the last underlined quote from the 9th below. Very telling in light of what is going on. From THE authority, the 9th.


[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco

 

[Phoenix]

The answere is,,,,since you have not been paying attention, and are still stuck in the Seeham, its just a crewmeal arguement,,,

The entity in which the agent wishes to entwine in their illegal proposal.


So, who can usurp the company's authority to flat out refuse to take part of an illegal enterprise?

The real issue is that a collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. The 9th understood that. There is nothing illegal about that.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't see why USAPA would be done if she says the company accepted and has to use the Nic, and why the appeal? There is no need for any appeal unless the legal cadre says it is necessary. She has not stated that USAPA has to use the Nic as its' proposal. She stays away from the 9th if she makes no comment on USAPA s obligations, only the companys. If the company gets the rule and Silver says the Nic is what they use, they will never get an East vote that ratifies it.
If she says USAPA has to use it? Right to the 9th on appeal, and she is well aware of this. I pray she rules USAPA has to do the Nic, please say it Judge Silver. But I think she is smart, and saw the spank job Wake got for that error, so she will avoid that.
There is no court in the land that can make the East pilots ratify a contract with the Nic in it. Pay for longevity, and you have a deal with the Nic. If Kasher ever finds for the East favorably, then there absolutely will not be a contract with the Nic. no matter what anybody says. Stay tuned, you have years ahead of you, and me before this is resolved. Read the last underlined quote from the 9th below. Very telling in light of what is going on. From THE authority, the 9th.


[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco

Bingo. The 9th wasn't afraid to accept the fact that ALPA failed to achieve a contract, or to acknowledge that ALPA was GONE, or to acknowledged that USAPA was now the responsible agent to bargain for a ratifiable contract, including their seniority proposal.

"At this point, neither the West Pilots nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new, single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA's seniority proposal-whatever USAPA's final proposal ultimately is. "

Silver has her work cut out for her. Did she ever ask the company what their counter proposal was to USAPA, or if they have completed negotiations yet?

 

[cleardirect]

Hmmmm

Yet another law suit coming your our way. Yeah, that more accurately describes what might happen.

BTW, I give little credence to allegations, at least until due process occurs. Something you might try. If you do, guaranteed, your literacy will increase, not enough for bathroom walls in your case, but, an improvement none the less.

Well Mr. hypocrite you and your friends had no problem giving credence to the RICO charges or to the ID theft allegation. You guys had the west pilots convicted and in jail. But now you want to wait for due process.

 

[Pi brat]

First of all, if you did indeed vote for ALPA, thank you, but that's not enough. There's only two sides to this so-called seniority dispute so you're on one side or the other. Saying you don't agree with everything USAPA says doesn't make you any less part of the problem.



Au contraire, I've been a fairly non-emotional pragmatist in this game for many years. Back in 2002 I caught hell from my fellow TWA'ers when I dared to suggest joining the APA was the smart thing to do. Similarly, I caught hell from many AWAer's when I advocated joining USAPA from the get-go.

My pragmatism, however, can't possibly eliminate the anger I feel for the East's treacherous actions. As an Eastie if you don't think you're deserving of my scorn you'll have to prove you're taking action to make amends.

And BTW, so sorry I had to go to sleep and then commute to work. Next time I'll make sure to stay up all night and call in sick just so you won't have to post any more "I'm waitings".

Let me get this straight. You come on a public board and accuse me, not my group, of acts of treachery. I call you on it, telling to back up that accusation with proof. You then have the gall to say that while you don't actually know what I have or have not done, whatever it was, it wasn't enough. Amazing. Have you had a good old back yard lynching lately. I have some proof for you, but I neither owe you an explanation nor do you deserve one. With that, go perform a physical impossibility.

I used to think you were one of the moderates on here. Back then I paid attention to your posts. Something happened. Just like it did with a lot of west guys that I got along with. For them it was when USAPA prevailed in SFO. I don't know what did it for you, but now I put you in the same bucket as uhaul.

No need for you to wait up. Just give me your number and I can call and tell you when you are wrong.

I have a little integrity test for you. Nic4us pointed out last night that you were at TWA and AA, so you may indeed have a seniority number there that could be senior to me if we merge. Fair enough. So let's say a merger happens with us, and a SLI comes out that honors your time at TWA and AA and although you are furloughed from there, puts you senior to your AWA buddies. Will you accept that number, or stick with your AWA Nicolau one?

 

[prechilill]

exB717, you are an upstanding individual and well respected by your peers from the west. Your posts have a tremendous degree of integrity and honesty and from what I can see on here this is not well understood, much less appreciated, by many on the east. Your colleagues in the west appreciate your independent thought and with your posts even on this forum are easy to recognize who you are.

 

[luvn737s]

The company openly stated that it believes it is obligated to use the Nic. Final and binding arbitration and a TA obligates them to do so. Why would the judge overturn this? She gets it. That's obvious. She will rule on #'s 1 and 2 leaving 3 moot. If she can't then you will have your chance. I believe she will and this mess will be over with.

The company will finally tell the east that the Nic is it and we will move on. Any retribution you may have planned will be squashed by the injunction against you. Parker no longer needs to placate you.

Common sense, no special wink.

What makes you think USAPA will do anything other than what they have already done, delay? They will admit to having the NIC forced on them and then drag their feet and get themselves parked because of their outlandish bargaining positions. In lieu of actual leadership they will hold the door open to upgrading F/O's as long as possible.

If you think that they will suddenly see the errors of their ways and behave rationally, I've never seen any evidence of that.

 

[Move2CLT]

Be careful, uhaul go the name wrong. I hope there isn't a Valerie H. around angry that her name was soiled. ;-)

Ya, it was my bad. I'll have to ask the udder what he thinks my legal standing is. He knows how to spell libel and stuff.

 

[Move2CLT]

That is correct. I'm waiting on another call to verify this.

Jordan is out.

Another one bites the dust.

Theur, Jordan and Kubic.

 

[Move2CLT]

That dog is sleeping with which secretary? Damn.

Is that like in the way that Kirby intimidates underlings to sleep with him? I hope he is using a condom. We all know how that can turn out...

Totally different situation.

Kirby did it out of love.

And I truley hope Randy is using a condom. We don't need another Herman Munster lookalike running around on this planet. :unsure:

 

[Move2CLT]

The real issue is that a collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated. The 9th understood that. There is nothing illegal about that.

Nope, the real issue is USAPA passed an illegal list across the table and the company rejected it.

The merits of that argument were upheld.

 

[FL430]

I can't find it there if it is.

I originally copied it from the AWAPPA site, but that is password protected, and I am not sure it is still even there, since they redid that site some time ago.

You can find it on Wings - flight operations document section.