US Pilots Labor Discussion

[USA320Pilot]

To read the declaratory judgment lawsuit scheduling conference transcripts click here.

 

[Phoenix]

Why do you think the judicial system gives once ounce of a crap if you get a new contract? Nobody owes you one...until the day you die. Nobody owes you or your fake union one single iota of contractual improvement...EVER. Nobody cares about you and your B.S. Culture of entitlement. You are free to vote down any contract you wish until the end of time. Again, NOBODY CARES! Your desire for a better contract hardly trumps the West pilots right to DFR. Same goes for the company which is why they've all of the sudden had an epiphany and declared the nic. The only list they'll consider.

You can F'ing DIE on LOA93 as far as ANYBODY is concerned. Understand yet?

You shouldn't be so shy. Its hard to grasp what you are saying.

 

[Res Judicata]

You shouldn't be so shy. Its hard to grasp what you are saying.

"oh, well allow me to retort!"

 

[767jetz]

YES WE DID!

-blah blah blah

😛

Wow! As usual you are SO wrong. Interesting how you omit all that followed, in order to provide a false account of what actually happened to those who may not have had the time to read the whole thing. How typical.

Like the part that followed where Siegel and Harper (mostly Siegel) completely shredded every word you just posted to the point where the judge actually says "I see. Okay. So I did misunderstand you. So what you're saying is that you could start all over again?"

Then there is this: "Okay. All right. I've got it and we don't need to discuss this any more. It's a legal issue and this will presage any other issues I make on whether or not discovery is appropriate from this point forward. So let's get an expedited briefing on that issue and in terms of the Rule 16 order, then I am not going to issue a Rule 16 order other than that because I haven't decided whether or not discovery is necessary at all."

Or this:
MR. SYZMANSKI: Your Honor, we have discussed in our papers a request for mediation. But I assume that since the opposition of the West class is that they don't see any reason to participate, that the Court doesn't see any utility in that. 11:35:05

THE COURT: Everybody -- one side is going to stand stiffly against the other. It doesn't make any sense. It's a needless consumption of time. Thank you for raising that.

Anyone with an interest in this should read the whole transcript. It doesn't take that long, and it is very clear by the end what the tone of the court is.

 

[prechilill]

Courtney, you can't possibly be as stupid as you look, can you? I mean you know people will read the whole document , especially the part where the company's attorney shoots down this whole exchange?

Courtney could once squeeze into a -9 cockpit? No Way!

 

[A320 Driver]

OK, I went in and read this whole proceeding. I don't see any "one upping" or "smackdowns" like so many seem to claim. What I did see was a judge that is concerned with what the law says. I see no bias or premature leanings in anything she says as opposed to Wake. She wants to, first and foremost, determine what the LAW says regarding the NIC. Can it be ignored? We will know shortly. But that is the simplest part of this whole mess for the pilot group IMO.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the NIC is upheld. How do we wrestle a contract from a company that, by every indication, doesn't want one yet? And how do you get enough of a gain in it to get enough support from a majority to overcome the NIC?

Next, how do you integrate two pilot groups that have so much bad blood between them. I've read posts on this board that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck that stated that certain pilots would not support or back other pilots, even in a difficult situation. That is juvenile, stupid and illegal, but it shows you where we are. We need leadership and not the union kind. We need Flight Department managers that can inspire some integrity among this pilot group and I don't see any. Even the Chief Pilots have been neutered to the point of being ineffective in the simplest of things like pay claims. It is ridiculous the way we are operating in spite of what our performance numbers show.

Another merger is on the way unless Doug lets himself get suckered like he did at United. The LCC pilot group, AS A WHOLE, had better be ready to defend their positions on the seniority list.

There is MUCH work to be done before that can happen. I'm not the least bit confidant based on what I read here.

Driver...

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

How do we wrestle a contract from a company that, by every indication, doesn't want one yet?

Everything else you posted is subordinate to this.

Posters are arguing over a nicholau and the company hasn't even crossed the start line just to establish a merged contract. Much less making it palatable to 51% of the pilots.

I know there are a couple of external factors at play, LOA 93 and the FAA new duty rules but, otherwise the company is, as usual, doing the thing they do, step over dollars to pick up pennies. They will delay, from their point of view, increased costs and grossly reward themselves for doing so.

How do you change that? Logic doesn't work. The rules are against labor. Perhaps the pilots should "occupy tempe"? Who knows? I do know this, however, putting the blame on ineffective "leadership" is a red herring in this case. Neither Churchill nor Attila the Hun could get to a merged proposal until Mr. Parker allows it, unless extralegal measures are introduced, a concept that seems to send many pilots to their fainting couches.

 

[luvthe9]

You can F'ing DIE on LOA93 as far as ANYBODY is concerned. Understand yet?

And you can F'ing die with no NIC as far as ANYBODY is concerned. Understand yet? 😛

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Care to say that to Mr. Kirby's lawyer?

Are you afraid to? The assertion was that this was "love", I am saying it was rape. Even if one wanted to, casual sex is never considered "love", even by someone with the lowest of standards. His actions caused a company asset to be trashed, made useless or cactus'ed, as they say in Australia.

Calling me a pig while you defend someone who apparently cannot keep "it" out of the news is called projection, attempting to put your tribe's own bad qualities upon someone else. (You are the one who called me, swinish, aren't you?)

Look, I can imagine that when you spend your entire career, both years?, rolling in the mud with your fellow pigs, you might tend to get a little defensive when one of your fellow pigs is held out to be other than clean. It is natural.

I was brought up that you always take special care when someone works for you, because intimidation, direct or indirect, is not an acceptable form of management or office politics, your loyalties are first to the institution, not your johnson.

 

[Move2CLT]

OK, I went in and read this whole proceeding. I don't see any "one upping" or "smackdowns" like so many seem to claim. What I did see was a judge that is concerned with what the law says. I see no bias or premature leanings in anything she says as opposed to Wake. She wants to, first and foremost, determine what the LAW says regarding the NIC. Can it be ignored? We will know shortly. But that is the simplest part of this whole mess for the pilot group IMO.

Read harder.

Other then the extra week they wanted, everything USAPA requested was denied.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the NIC is upheld. How do we wrestle a contract from a company that, by every indication, doesn't want one yet? And how do you get enough of a gain in it to get enough support from a majority to overcome the NIC?

Since we're under an injunction thanks to USAPA's ineptitude and barring any incentive a merger may present, we'll probably end up with something that looks like our contract with a little cash added to it.

With the west wanting to lock in the Nic and the east wanting to put an end to LOA93, you may just get the 51%. And, unfortunately, it will be 51%.

Next, how do you integrate two pilot groups that have so much bad blood between them. I've read posts on this board that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck that stated that certain pilots would not support or back other pilots, even in a difficult situation. That is juvenile, stupid and illegal, but it shows you where we are. We need leadership and not the union kind. We need Flight Department managers that can inspire some integrity among this pilot group and I don't see any. Even the Chief Pilots have been neutered to the point of being ineffective in the simplest of things like pay claims. It is ridiculous the way we are operating in spite of what our performance numbers show.

Those pilots will be quickly terminated. It won't be system wide and the few agitators, the ones that can't get over it, will come to the surface quite quickly. Remember that the actions that led to the injunction, according to the company, were perpetrated by a relatively small number of easties.

Wells is a good example of this. USAPA was using her as a poster child for pilot-pushing one day and the next day not a peep. USAPA and Wells were allowed to listen to the CVR of that evening when her incident went down and they both took the hint.

Another merger is on the way unless Doug lets himself get suckered like he did at United. The LCC pilot group, AS A WHOLE, had better be ready to defend their positions on the seniority list.

There is MUCH work to be done before that can happen. I'm not the least bit confidant based on what I read here.

Driver...

Its quite obvious that the west, a minority group, can defend itself and now has more than enough legal backing to put up a great fight.

What I suggest, looking at your history, is that you let a contingent of west pilots take charge of the next MC and handle the integration. We'll be going up against a union that, instead of a DOH mandate, has a staple mandate in the C&BLs.

As can be seen by the way USAPA is falling apart, you guys lack the leadership to accomplish anything. You're to fraught with emotion to be rational. Its why you always fail.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Okay westies., there ya go. Mr ex717 says it's the process and he might just have to give up on the "furloghees bring no job"mantra.............if it favors him! And the "no westie would want it anyhow" defense. How do you feel about that?!

I guess I'm at a disadvantage here. My degree is in engineering and not English so help me to understand. You're talking about a process which neither involves my opinion nor my choice yet somehow that has something to do with my integrity? Furthermore, you think it somehow impugns my integrity when this whole thread is about a pilot group which reneges on its agreement?

If you're going to fly off the handle with anger at least try maintain some rationality. Otherwise, you sound just like all the other USAPA propaganda mouthpieces.

 

[Move2CLT]

...unless extralegal measures are introduced, a concept that seems to send many pilots to their fainting couches.

What did those measures get you?

Unless you know how to execute, you end up enjoined.

No, this was a failure of leadership, of USAPA. Of that, there is no doubt.

 

[Move2CLT]

To read the declaratory judgment lawsuit scheduling conference transcripts click here.

Just start at p32 with Seigel.

 

[Move2CLT]

And you can F'ing die with no NIC as far as ANYBODY is concerned. Understand yet? 😛

Now there is someone who truly does not understand his own situation.

 

[767jetz]

I see no bias or premature leanings in anything she says as opposed to Wake. She wants to, first and foremost, determine what the LAW says regarding the NIC.

Of course. She absolutely can not have any premature determinations. She can set the tone though of what she will and will not allow in her courtroom. That is where IMO the transcript is most telling. It appears that she wants to cut through the BS and smoke and get ti a decision ASAP.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the NIC is upheld. How do we wrestle a contract from a company that, by every indication, doesn't want one yet?

If management has any aspirations to complete another merger, they know that they need to wrap this up, even if the cost of doing so is slightly more than they wanted. They are looking at the big picture. If they can get a HUGE payoff they will be more than happy to throw enough carrots into the mix. that doesn't mean they will give away the farm.

And how do you get enough of a gain in it to get enough support from a majority to overcome the NIC?

They just need to get a 50% + 1 result. Assuming your scenario of Nic being the list, they will start to sweeten the offers. If it goes out for a vote and is not passed, they will add more sugar and try again. This often happens in contract negotiations. They don't need to make everyone happy. There is no more separate ratification if I'm not mistaken. So they only need about 25% of the east to vote with the entire west to reach the 50% goal. Of course your NAC will have to pass the JCBA to membership, which means a change in leadership or possibly even a change of unions might have to occur to make facilitate that.

The LCC pilot group, AS A WHOLE, had better be ready to defend their positions on the seniority list.

This is yet another reason the "fence sitters" on the east might lower expectations. Faced with the possibility of an even worse deal at the hands of the APA, the need for unity might trump the need for a continued civil war. Especially if doing so might leave US without a dance partner in the final song of the consolidation dance.