US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

I guess I'm at a disadvantage here. My degree is in engineering and not English so help me to understand. You're talking about a process which neither involves my opinion nor my choice yet somehow that has something to do with my integrity? Furthermore, you think it somehow impugns my integrity when this whole thread is about a pilot group which reneges on its agreement?

If you're going to fly off the handle with anger at least try maintain some rationality. Otherwise, you sound just like all the other USAPA propaganda mouthpieces.

PI was born into the job at the tender age of 24. On another thread he talks about flying on a Piedmont 737 at age 5 and then flying the same aircraft 19 years later as a new employee. The job market was very competitive in the '80s, I guess having daddy working at the airline helped grease a few skids to get junior a job.
I wonder how much PIC turbine time ol' PI had accumulated by the time he got his golden ticket? Hmmmm. I really believe PI is a pretty good guy, he's just having problems with a DOH merger with US Scare where he got burned badly and now he saw a relative seniority merger with AWA. Poor guy, he's extremely frustrated and it shows in his posts with you, Jim, Jetz and others.

This is all info PI has been nice enough to share with us all throughout the years- nothing new in this post. I don't know who he is and he certainly has no clue who I am.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the Judge rules that the company can only accept the NIC without legal jeopardy, here's my take on a contract that would pass (based on what very little I know about many sections of the Kirby):

Pay up another 3 % - that's $155 for an A320 TOS captain.
Keep the east equipment pay groups and the pay differential that goes with them - 757/767 would pay $175 or so and A330 would pay $195 or so, before int'l override.
East scope
West vacation
West duty rigs
Better (for pilots) reserve - maybe West system...don't know enough about it to say.
West health insurance payment percentage
Keep combined min fleet where it is
(that's about all I know of the Kirby from posts here)

Don't know what the extra cost would be, but I'd bet that would pass with the NIC in it.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

If the Judge rules that the company can only accept the NIC without legal jeopardy, here's my take on a contract that would pass (based on what very little I know about many sections of the Kirby):

Pay up another 3 % - that's $155 for an A320 TOS captain.
Keep the east equipment pay groups and the pay differential that goes with them - 757/767 would pay $175 or so and A330 would pay $195 or so, before int'l override.
East scope
West vacation
West duty rigs
Better (for pilots) reserve - maybe West system...don't know enough about it to say.
West health insurance payment percentage
Keep combined min fleet where it is
(that's about all I know of the Kirby from posts here)

Don't know what the extra cost would be, but I'd bet that would pass with the NIC in it.

Jim

That's pretty much it. I would hope the TOS for AB would be around $175, but with USAPA and our situation that's highly unlikely.

I've already consigned myself to the fact that it'll be my current contract with a pay bump.

It could be worse but I too think it would pass. At least I'd get to move2clt.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Are you afraid to? The assertion was that this was "love", I am saying it was rape. Even if one wanted to, casual sex is never considered "love", even by someone with the lowest of standards. His actions caused a company asset to be trashed, made useless or cactus'ed, as they say in Australia.

Calling me a pig while you defend someone who apparently cannot keep "it" out of the news is called projection, attempting to put your tribe's own bad qualities upon someone else. (You are the one who called me, swinish, aren't you?)

Look, I can imagine that when you spend your entire career, both years?, rolling in the mud with your fellow pigs, you might tend to get a little defensive when one of your fellow pigs is held out to be other than clean. It is natural.

I was brought up that you always take special care when someone works for you, because intimidation, direct or indirect, is not an acceptable form of management or office politics, your loyalties are first to the institution, not your johnson.

Nice blather and diversion. You are treading dangerously. Slander and libel are serious things. Think before you speak.

 

[luvn737s]

If the Judge rules that the company can only accept the NIC without legal jeopardy, here's my take on a contract that would pass (based on what very little I know about many sections of the Kirby):

Pay up another 3 % - that's $155 for an A320 TOS captain.
Keep the east equipment pay groups and the pay differential that goes with them - 757/767 would pay $175 or so and A330 would pay $195 or so, before int'l override.
East scope
West vacation
West duty rigs
Better (for pilots) reserve - maybe West system...don't know enough about it to say.
West health insurance payment percentage
Keep combined min fleet where it is
(that's about all I know of the Kirby from posts here)

Don't know what the extra cost would be, but I'd bet that would pass with the NIC in it.

Jim

I remember Parker (or Kirby) saying that the company would not go along with "cherry picking" the best of both contracts. But that was then. From your post, that sounds like 8 separate "at bats" for a contract to get your wish list in it's entirety.

 

[nic4us]

OK, I went in and read this whole proceeding. I don't see any "one upping" or "smackdowns" like so many seem to claim. What I did see was a judge that is concerned with what the law says. I see no bias or premature leanings in anything she says as opposed to Wake. She wants to, first and foremost, determine what the LAW says regarding the NIC. Can it be ignored? We will know shortly. But that is the simplest part of this whole mess for the pilot group IMO.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the NIC is upheld. How do we wrestle a contract from a company that, by every indication, doesn't want one yet? And how do you get enough of a gain in it to get enough support from a majority to overcome the NIC?

Next, how do you integrate two pilot groups that have so much bad blood between them. I've read posts on this board that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck that stated that certain pilots would not support or back other pilots, even in a difficult situation. That is juvenile, stupid and illegal, but it shows you where we are. We need leadership and not the union kind. We need Flight Department managers that can inspire some integrity among this pilot group and I don't see any. Even the Chief Pilots have been neutered to the point of being ineffective in the simplest of things like pay claims. It is ridiculous the way we are operating in spite of what our performance numbers show.

Another merger is on the way unless Doug lets himself get suckered like he did at United. The LCC pilot group, AS A WHOLE, had better be ready to defend their positions on the seniority list.

There is MUCH work to be done before that can happen. I'm not the least bit confidant based on what I read here.

Driver...

Integrating the pilot groups is easy.

Any agreement incorporates a one year moratorium prohibiting base fleet reductions, and pilot domicile bids, giving everbody a year to think about what is coming. During this year we do as much mixed training as possible. i.e. get east and West crewmembers doing AQP together. (maybe PHX captains all go to CLT for AQP, and PHL-CLT captains go to PHX)

Then once we have everybody settled down, we put one condition and restriction regarding base bids. That condition being, Move2Clt must stay in PHX as long as there are at least 20 PHX captains who have not put him on their NoFly list.

Sound Fair?......I am trying to work with you here!!!

 

[Move2CLT]

Integrating the pilot groups is easy.

Any agreement incorporates a one year moratorium prohibiting base fleet reductions, and pilot domicile bids, giving everbody a year to think about what is coming. During this year we do as much mixed training as possible. i.e. get east and West crewmembers doing AQP together. (maybe PHX captains all go to CLT for AQP, and PHL-CLT captains go to PHX)

Then once we have everybody settled down, we put one condition and restriction regarding base bids. That condition being, Move2Clt must stay in PHX as long as there are at least 20 PHX captains who have not put him on their NoFly list.

Sound Fair?......I am trying to work with you here!!!

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? 😱

 

[nic4us]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? 😱

Just messing with ya!!!

 

[prechilill]

We love you 2CLT! Your posts add color to this board and kinda gives the few eastie degenerates a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Move2CLT]

Just trying to bring truth and guidance to the east folks.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If the Judge rules that the company can only accept the NIC without legal jeopardy, here's my take on a contract that would pass (based on what very little I know about many sections of the Kirby):

Pay up another 3 % - that's $155 for an A320 TOS captain.
Keep the east equipment pay groups and the pay differential that goes with them - 757/767 would pay $175 or so and A330 would pay $195 or so, before int'l override.
East scope
West vacation
West duty rigs
Better (for pilots) reserve - maybe West system...don't know enough about it to say.
West health insurance payment percentage
Keep combined min fleet where it is
(that's about all I know of the Kirby from posts here)

Don't know what the extra cost would be, but I'd bet that would pass with the NIC in it.

Jim

If your first statement holds true (assuming all judicial avenues have been exhausted,) I agree with your last statement. I wouldn't vote yes, but I do think it would pass.

 

[Move2CLT]

If your first statement holds true (assuming all judicial avenues have been exhausted,) I agree with your last statement. I wouldn't vote yes, but I do think it would pass.

With enough money, the judicial avenues can be endless so you'd more than likely have to call it quits instead of exhausting your options as USAPA's goal is to perpetuate this.

When would you think it would be time to call it quits?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I remember Parker (or Kirby) saying that the company would not go along with "cherry picking" the best of both contracts. But that was then. From your post, that sounds like 8 separate "at bats" for a contract to get your wish list in it's entirety.

Ah, the "cost neutral" days before the Kirby proposal. The topic of what (if anything) Parker did wrong in this merger comes up occasionally in other forums, and the insistence on "cost neutral" is what I always bring up. I think there would have been a decent chance that a contract could have been wrapped up prior to Nic announcing his award if Parker hadn't insisted on that for the first 18 months or so. That would have avoided the mess of the last 4.5-5 years.

Not sure what you mean by 8 "at bats" - if you mean 8 contracts I'm more optimistic than you. The extra 3% pay increase is worth $10-20 million, another week of vacation for east is worth less than that, etc. Just a wild guess - $150-160 million a year instead of $120. That's based on the company's estimate of $120 million for the Kirby, which I assume is high.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

If your first statement holds true (assuming all judicial avenues have been exhausted,) I agree with your last statement. I wouldn't vote yes, but I do think it would pass.

Actually, I think such a contract would likely pass tomorrow (by a smaller margin) except USAPA wouldn't accept it until the legal process is over, hence nothing to vote on. I just believe that there's enough on the east side that are tired of being on the bottom contract-wise that would vote for a better contract to pass it when combined with the west MIGS.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

On Thursday, December 1st, The Honorable Chief Judge of the Federal District of Arizona, Judge Roslyn O. Silver, held a Scheduling Conference in The US Airways’ Complaint for Declaratory Relief (Doc 1) at the Sandra Day O’Connor Federal Court House in Phoenix, Arizona.

This was our second visit into Courtroom 604 as you may recall the first was the dismissal hearing on February 9, 2011. While the three parties are basically the same, there were some differences in both nature and physical appearance.

While we are all familiar with US Airways lead counsel Robert Siegel, it was the first appearance for the freshly minted West Class and the three new Class Representatives with Attorney Marty Harper at the helm along with the new law firm for USAPA led by Patrick Szymanski. While not a capacity gallery, there were many West pilots in attendance, and for a moment, we didn’t see any east pilots until we realized that they chose to attend incognito. We have an inquiry to our Phoenix Reps as to whether the union business uniform policy has been changed to street clothes without our knowledge or BPR consent.

Judge Silver began with a few housekeeping details denying USAPA’s objections to West Class Certification and granting the additional West Class Representatives. Thereafter, it was right to business as Judge Silver began whittling the pencil lead to a very sharp point by the end of the 59 minute hearing. Her focus was to create a manageable case to answer a simple question: Will Plaintiff US Airways be held liable to the Defendant West Class in the event they choose to negotiate a non-Nicolau seniority integration with Co-Defendant USAPA?

Since most of the case strategy was decided among the parties in the Joint Case Management Plan (Doc 130), there were some lingering protests to the pace of how this case should proceed. Being the squeaky-wheel, USAPA’s counsel was first to answer Judge Silver’s questions. After a long-winded and rather circular argument for discovery by Patrick Szymanski, Judge Silver simply did not find validity in USAPA’s idea that discovery into post-merger career expectations somehow awards the union a lawful right to renege on the Transition Agreement and Nicolau Arbitration. Her focus was refined when Robert Siegel posited that US Airways believes the Nicolau is binding on all parties per the Transition Agreement (TA). Leonidas counsel Marty Harper added that USAPA is attempting a collateral attack on the Nicolau decision and that Judge Silver must not allow that to occur.

After arguments, Judge Silver decided to forgo lengthy and gratuitous discovery in favor of Expedited Summary Judgment on the legal issue at hand: US Airways liability under the undisputed facts of this case. An Expedited Summary Judgment is what the West and Airways argued for. USAPA apparently was aiming for an adjudication far more involved and time consuming than a summary judgment, but Judge Silver did not give USAPA what they wanted. Now, briefs will be submitted on January 17th and responses are due on February 10th. USAPA and the West will argue how the law applies to Counts I and II1. If Judge Silver decides that the law is clear as applied to the undisputed facts of the Airways case, then she can render a final decision that effectively ends the seniority dispute once and for all.

Be sure to check www.cactuspilot.com for the transcripts from Thursday’s hearing. We urge all parties to read the transcripts.

We continue to applaud your diligence in funding the protection of all US Airways pilots’ careers.

Finally, we leave you with the quote of the day offered by the Honorable Judge Silver when she responded to USAPA’s request for the Court Ordered Mediation by saying, “Mediation is a needless consumption of time.” We couldn’t agree more.


Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC