US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Harry Callahan]

Happy New Year Bob!

Same from me & PI check your message.

 

[767one]

Maybe all that is correct, what the company is sayingin the DJ. I think the real story is what the company IS NOT saying, and never will. In my opinion they mishandled the issue from day one of usapa, and I'll leave it at that.

Have not seen any posts from you in quite a long time. I took a bit a break from this siite due to a couple of health issues. Hope all is well with you.

Happy new year!


Bob

 

[Res Judicata]

The company. If they really wanted it settle why didn't they say "Let's negotiate, like we have to, but anything less for the west pilots is off the table. Don't like it? I guess we are at an impasse, or you sue."

Really Res. You've been one of USAPA biggest critics. What does the company have to fear?

The company has to fear the potential damages for colluding with USAPA in an unfair labor practice. It's a very real thing and obviously illegal. It's amazing how much clarity the company has on this issue when they're standing in front of a Judge...the crew news events however? Parker gets a little fuzzy on the details and feigns ignorance. Must be the booze.

 

[Pi brat]

The company has to fear the potential damages for colluding with USAPA in an unfair labor practice.

That wasn't what I asked. What was the risk of telling USAPA to pound sand?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Have not seen any posts from you in quite a long time. I took a bit a break from this siite due to a couple of health issues. Hope all is well with you.

Happy new year!


Bob

Thank you, happy new year to you to Bob. Hope all's well with your health.

 

[Res Judicata]

That wasn't what I asked. What was the risk of telling USAPA to pound sand?

Well firstly, we don't know that they didn't. I doubt that little tidbit would be released from the Ministry of Information. Parker told me himself that if he did that, they'd ,(the company) wouldn't likely get a contract any time soon...so I guess they're looking to pass the blame upon the Courts for disappointing the East. If I was Parker however I most certainly would have told USAPA To pound sand. In fact, before the union vote ever took place, I would have very public ally, and in no uncertain terms informed all parties that we have a list, we agreed to it and payed for it. I'd say, "go ahead and change unions all you want, doesn't matter to me, but you can forget EVER changing the nic. Award"

The only problems with that are the fact that EAST PILOTS completely FAILED to manage realistic expectations of their fellow EAST PILOTS. That continues today....ie Mowery reminding everyone that there is still a glimmer of hope on the LOA93 grievance...are these people completely incapable of learning from past mistakes? It would seem so. Secondly, Parker chose to completely abdicate any and all LEADERSHIP in this mess. I guess since a group of pilots dropped a billion dollar coupon on his lap, he decided to use it in exchange for his integrity and moral obligation of fair, honest Stewardship.

That won't be forgotten.

I don't know if that's an answer for you or not.

 

[Pi brat]

Well firstly, we don't know that they didn't. I doubt that little tidbit would be released from the Ministry of Information. Parker told me himself that if he did that, they'd ,(the company) wouldn't likely get a contract any time soon...so I guess they're looking to pass the blame upon the Courts for disappointing the East. If I was Parker however I most certainly would have told USAPA To pound sand. In fact, before the union vote ever took place, I would have very public ally, and in no uncertain terms informed all parties that we have a list, we agreed to it and payed for it. I'd say, "go ahead and change unions all you want, doesn't matter to me, but you can forget EVER changing the nic. Award"

The only problems with that are the fact that EAST PILOTS completely FAILED to manage realistic expectations of their fellow EAST PILOTS. That continues today....ie Mowery reminding everyone that there is still a glimmer of hope on the LOA93 grievance...are these people completely incapable of learning from past mistakes? It would seem so. Secondly, Parker chose to completely abdicate any and all LEADERSHIP in this mess. I guess since a group of pilots dropped a billion dollar coupon on his lap, he decided to use it in exchange for his integrity and moral obligation of fair, honest Stewardship.

That won't be forgotten.

I don't know if that's an answer for you or not.

Yeah, that did and thanks for the reply. Who knows, I just don't think the way this management team has been really interested in a contract. They fell into this cost savings and I think they were/are milking it.

Anyway, to you and all the others I've sparred with a sincere Happy New Year. Off to dodge the drunks. ;-)

 

[cleardirect]

This might surprise you, but I can say that you might be right about most of the above(how is that for qualifying?) I really don't have the legal knowledge to say for sure, but sounds plausible. The one thing I wonder about is the USAPA leadership issue you raise. Your buddy uhaul is planning on voting for Cleary and Co. I feel they will appeal, and even if it is really irrelevant, it could take time. Then we have the whole issue of a contract. The company and the NAC are way off. How do we settle that? So, in reality, it's not over in April, it's just back to 2007, right?

If a merger with AA comes about that could change everything. About a year ago I said I thought we were years away from it being really "done", absent some unseen event. Unless AA is that event, I think we still are. We'll see.

I think that is the saddest and truest statement ever written on this forum.

Yes so in 2012, 5 years wasted to end up in the exact same spot. 5 years of fighting and 5 years of giving away better contracts and wages. FOR WHAT??????

Are you guys finally beginning to understand why final and binding arbitration is final and binding? So we don't go throught eh courts and spend millions of dollars fighting and waiting for the court to rule and appeal that decision. Arbitration quick and clean and final.

5 years ago we could have gotten together and fought management for a better contract for all of us. Instead we wasted 5 years chasing a ghost. Now there are bad feelings, hardened battle lines and money and benefit that will never be recovered.

Yes we will be back to 2007. A sad statement in deed. The seniority issue will be over and we are back to the same contract issue we had in 2007.

 

[fifidriver]

Happy New Year Bob!

Happy New Year Bob!

 

[cleardirect]

Like with clear, I agree with you on some of your post. It wasn't the word "it" that I had a problem with, it was the word "over". Judge Silver may be a nail in the DOH coffin, it's just that won't make the fight over. "Over" to me means resolution. We still have to have a joint contract before the seniority fight is over. Trust me, that might be the new battle ground. Unless Parker decided he now needs a contract.

As far as your point about the company having to negotiate but not necessarily agree to every demand, I agree and hasn't it always been that way? Couldn't they have negotiated, like Silver asked them about, and just said we can't do that? After Siegal(sp?) testified earlier in the year I thought his opinion was they had to use the Nic, so was the delay really to avoid lawsuits, or just to delay? After all, he is a RLA expert. If USAPA gets the ruling they expect, it still doesn't bind the company to agreeing to DOH, right? I have a hard time seeing the court giving the company immunity. Maybe they just want some extra evidence on their side if they do, but I still have my doubts that that way the purpose of the suit.

Yes they could have but then the company would be the bad guy. If Silver says we have to use the Nicolau then the court is the bad guy. Parker is all about shifting blame to someone else. You guys know about that right?

Parker wants to be able to say to the east sorry boys I really would have liked to helped you out but the mean court says no. It's not my fault.

 

[luvn737s]

Supporting Cleary is the only logical choice for West pilots. Unless of course the majority East is ready to vote away the pointless DOH clause in the cbl and elect a sane bpr and president. Unlikely imo. So what's the difference? One DOH Easthole is just like another. The West will stick with El Presidente looney toons.

So those are the only choices? Are you saying the only strategy the west has is to wait for the east to come to their senses and do something reasonable, something that hasn't happened in 5 years (or more)? Are you saying that the west needs to continue to allow Cleary full reign to destroy in the stroke of a pen, what has taken decades to build (west contract)?

Since we are one group, we are not entitled to separate contract ratification with veto authority (and never were, even when separate entities). What is to stop USAPA from stripping membership ratification from the Constitution and signing a contract that cements DOH and in the process gives away all of the contract provisions of the west? The threat of a DFR? How much of a threat is that when the consequences could merely be bankruptcy of the union? This could be USAPA's Hiroshima that they say is the necessary step with a merger with AA right around the corner and enough east folks will buy it to make it happen.

Why not instead put a full-on push to elect a west President who will appoint proven leaders without the baggage of east retreads? Is it any more audacious to believe that the east would support new blood than it is to expect them to somehow come to their senses and do something completely different with the very same people?

 

[jetjok1]

This Forum has turned into cyber WWF Wrestling.

Amazing that college educated(most of them anyway) FAA Certificated Airline Transport Pilots can conduct themselves as many have here on USAviation. One can only hope that 2012 brings final legal resolution to Section 22 and we can MOVE ON to better wages and working conditions.

Oh well, back to Fox News for a breath of fresh air.......

"
It's just pure entertainment for me! as Mr. I-need-to-change-my-avatar-like-i-change-my-underwear says.........."It makes for a good belly laugh"!

 

[nic4us]

What was the risk of telling USAPA to pound sand?

We really need to put this back into the context of 2010, or whenever the company first filed.

usapa publically told the company that they would seek release and self-help at the earliest possible time.

usapa waged an illegal "safety campaign" that was not just a temper tantrum, because the company did not play along in the usapa "safety survey".

Cleary went and filed a lawsuit in NYC, claiming the company was not negotiating as per the RLA.


This is just the tip of the usapa risk iceberg, and Parker decided to go all engines stop aboard the LCC Titanic. Smart move.

Once the courts give him a bearing on the usapa hull wrecker, Parker can easily chart a course to avoid.


Crazy thing is, everybody seems to be pretty sure Silver is going to somehow side with the West class and the Nic. I am not so sure. She is a Clinton apointee, and just like the two Clinton apointees at the 9th, she very well may rule in a nebulous manner that pleases usapa.

 

[Move2CLT]

Here we go for 2012:

Nic is it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Little help needed from an eastie.

USAPA stated that I. It's last telephonic meeting that it settled with the company regarding the injunction.

I thought settling was coming to a mutual agreement with a bit of give and take on both sides.

What is it the company gave? It sounds like USAPA gave up, gave in, and cried uncle on this, does it not.

Great union you have here. We should have a contract in 90 days.