US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Yes, I was wrong... Your silver spoon was bigger than I had thought.

You were wrong about the silver spoon too. In my family the best would have been silver plated. But if you are on the AB one of our bosses what hired younger than me and you comments my hit a little closer to home for him.

 

[Pi brat]

Wow, there might be a few things more you could have gotten wrong in that post, but I doubt it. In case you forgot, Dougie was going to get rid of our entire MD-88 fleet. That would put 1/3 of the Delta pilots on the street. Certainly that would be something worth fighting. You say our reorganization plan was anemic and yet the first year out of bankruptcy I got a $15,000 profit sharing check in February. Pretty anemic.

The DL/NW merger did not need any extra cash, we had over $6 billion in cash combined, why borrow more money when you don't need it. I was on the Delta MEC at the time of the US Air offer and thus I was making the decisions (as part of a team) and not Lee Moak. There was unanimous consent that we wanted nothing to do with US Airways and their failed leadership both at the corporate and union levels. The entire MEC camped out in Washington for several weeks to lobby Congress to oppose this merger. There might have been one Delta pilot that wanted that merger but I defy you to show me that person.

Delta led the industry in PRASM growth last year and has taken corporate market share from both AMR and LCC. We generated more profit in the fourth quarter than you generated all year. We have the best operational statistics of any large airline. We have paid down $5 billion in debt and put over $1.5 billion a year into aircraft and product improvements. We have hired over 1300 pilots since your merger. We will get another profit sharing check this year, somewhere around $12,000 for me. Our average pay has gone up over 27% in the last four years. We are on track to negotiate our second post bankruptcy agreement by the end of this year.

And you say the DL/NW merger is a failed merger? Please give me an example of a merger that went well if that is a failed merger. Doug Parker leading Delta Air Lines, the mere thought of it makes me shudder.

Thank you oscar, but he will still think he knows more than you. I never blamed you for fighting a merger with us.

 

[nic4us]

My mechanic makes way more than you and has much better blood pressure. Face it western. You totally screwed up. He makes way more twisting lug nuts and complains nowhere near what you do. sad

Maybe that is why your children have his eyes.

 

[Move2CLT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVOGlsDwec0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Is that you I hear bitching 9-piece?

 

[nic4us]

Wow, there might be a few things more you could have gotten wrong in that post, but I doubt it. In case you forgot, Dougie was going to get rid of our entire MD-88 fleet. That would put 1/3 of the Delta pilots on the street. Certainly that would be something worth fighting. You say our reorganization plan was anemic and yet the first year out of bankruptcy I got a $15,000 profit sharing check in February. Pretty anemic.

The DL/NW merger did not need any extra cash, we had over $6 billion in cash combined, why borrow more money when you don't need it. I was on the Delta MEC at the time of the US Air offer and thus I was making the decisions (as part of a team) and not Lee Moak. There was unanimous consent that we wanted nothing to do with US Airways and their failed leadership both at the corporate and union levels. The entire MEC camped out in Washington for several weeks to lobby Congress to oppose this merger. There might have been one Delta pilot that wanted that merger but I defy you to show me that person.

Delta led the industry in PRASM growth last year and has taken corporate market share from both AMR and LCC. We generated more profit in the fourth quarter than you generated all year. We have the best operational statistics of any large airline. We have paid down $5 billion in debt and put over $1.5 billion a year into aircraft and product improvements. We have hired over 1300 pilots since your merger. We will get another profit sharing check this year, somewhere around $12,000 for me. Our average pay has gone up over 27% in the last four years. We are on track to negotiate our second post bankruptcy agreement by the end of this year.

And you say the DL/NW merger is a failed merger? Please give me an example of a merger that went well if that is a failed merger. Doug Parker leading Delta Air Lines, the mere thought of it makes me shudder.

Hi Oscar,

Have not seen you post in some time. I would add that DL/NW had the significant advantage of hindsight from the AWA/AAA merger template of how not to merge two companies, and who and what to avoid.


Got any insight into Delta's studying a purchase of LCC? To me it looks like the easiest way for DL to stop an LCC/AA merger, which would result in a very large competitor and bad news for DL.

 

[prechilill]

You were wrong about the silver spoon too. In my family the best would have been silver plated. But if you are on the AB one of our bosses what hired younger than me and you comments my hit a little closer to home for him.

Wow! You mean there were a couple twenty year old prodigies at PI? Truly stellar!
Me, I was getting yelled at by Gunnery Sergeants at age 19, something you probably know nothing about. Discipline builds character.

 

[Pi brat]

Wow! You mean there were a couple twenty year old prodigies at PI? Truly stellar!
Me, I was getting yelled at by Gunnery Sergeants at age 19, something you probably know nothing about. Discipline builds character.

There were more than a couple. PI was like that, if you did a good job they would give people you believed in a CHANCE. Not all made it. In my class I was the only one that had the fleet manager, affectionately know as Darth Vader, meet him after the F/E written and observe one of his sim sessions.

On discipline we agree, but you don't have to worry about whether I received it. My Mom was one of twelve children, my Dad one of seven and all those aunts and uncles watched as close as Mom and Dad. A tobacco field made a pretty good training field for life.

Some people have no choice but to face gunnie, others really need it. I'm not sure which category you fell into, but I truly thank you for your service.

I wasn't called and decided not to go to the military. Since my boss would leave me at the FBO all night when I was 16, I guess I'd matured okay. I saw a different view of AVL than you did. Often at the bottom of a lav hose hooked to a PI 727, at 2 degrees with a 25 kt wind. Trust me, that builds character too, and many of my friends followed the same path and it was one PI liked. I was lucky, but I worked hard and gave up a lot to take advantage of my opportunities.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Wow, there might be a few things more you could have gotten wrong in that post, but I doubt it. In case you forgot, Dougie was going to get rid of our entire MD-88 fleet. That would put 1/3 of the Delta pilots on the street. Certainly that would be something worth fighting. You say our reorganization plan was anemic and yet the first year out of bankruptcy I got a $15,000 profit sharing check in February. Pretty anemic.

The DL/NW merger did not need any extra cash, we had over $6 billion in cash combined, why borrow more money when you don't need it. I was on the Delta MEC at the time of the US Air offer and thus I was making the decisions (as part of a team) and not Lee Moak. There was unanimous consent that we wanted nothing to do with US Airways and their failed leadership both at the corporate and union levels. The entire MEC camped out in Washington for several weeks to lobby Congress to oppose this merger. There might have been one Delta pilot that wanted that merger but I defy you to show me that person.

Delta led the industry in PRASM growth last year and has taken corporate market share from both AMR and LCC. We generated more profit in the fourth quarter than you generated all year. We have the best operational statistics of any large airline. We have paid down $5 billion in debt and put over $1.5 billion a year into aircraft and product improvements. We have hired over 1300 pilots since your merger. We will get another profit sharing check this year, somewhere around $12,000 for me. Our average pay has gone up over 27% in the last four years. We are on track to negotiate our second post bankruptcy agreement by the end of this year.

And you say the DL/NW merger is a failed merger? Please give me an example of a merger that went well if that is a failed merger. Doug Parker leading Delta Air Lines, the mere thought of it makes me shudder.

Oscar,

Thanks for your response. You claim that I got so many things wrong, but then don't really point out much by way of any error in my statement. For example, I never mentioned the MD-88s one way or the other but you claim that must have forgot that part. I think you are making more assumptions on this point than I am. While the US proposal certainly did include the reduction of redundancies and unnecessary assets (as it should have), neither you not Moak could possibly project the meaning of that to the pilot group(s) once the merger was complete. The pilot SLI would have to be competed before anyone could determine if DL, US East, or US West pilots would be more or less impacted by the proposed Management changes. In the interim a pilot merger Transition Agreement would have been required and the DL pilots could seek protections for their group via that document. Was there a proposed TA with the pilots or are you just speculating as to what would happen under your worst-case scenario?

If you re-read my post I specifically said that the DL stand-alone reorganization plan was anemic, but you made a reference to the first year after the merger with NW. Those are two very different and incompatible statements. I personally believe that the DL/NW merger was far better for those two airlines, and the industry as a whole, than if both companies had remained separate. I also think that the US/Parker hostile takeover attempt played a non-insignificant part in having Anderson appointed to the BOD and subsequently selected to be CEO for the express purpose of facilitating a post-bankruptcy merger with NW. If I recall correctly, that was absolutely not Gerald Grinstein's plan for a successor and he (publicly) preferred no merger at all (my Delta and all). If Grinstein would have had his way (actual plan of reorganization), then your nice bonus checks would have been quite a bit different.

You say: "The DL/NW merger did not need any extra cash, we had over $6 billion in cash combined, why borrow more money when you don't need it." There are several problems with that statement. First, money invested from outside sources (stockholders) is not a liability (borrowing money) on the balance sheet. It is considered equity rather than debt and thus strengthens the overall health of the organization as opposed to debt which weakens the financial health of the organization. Second, having a total of $6 billion sounds impressive, but that most certainly does not tell the whole picture. According to DL's 2008 SEC financial reports, the combined airline lost $8.9 billion that year (not healthy) and it had $44 billion in total liabilities compared with $45 billion in total assets, or only $1 billion in total equity (Assets=Liabilities+Equity). In case you aren't aware, a 44:1 debt-to-equity ratio is really not good at all. The US/Parker proposal would have immediately pumped far more equity into the combined US/DL financials resulting in a healthier company on any objective measure.

Please show me where in my post I claimed that the DL/NW was a "failed merger". I'm just not seeing that denotatively or connotatively anywhere in my previous post.

Doug may make you shudder, but he is the longest currently-serving CEO among the major airlines and yet he has never led an airline into bankruptcy court and faced more challenges than all of his peers combined (9/11, merger of to majors, oil price spikes, worst recession since WWII among other challenges). The former CEOs of WN, AA, DL, and UA all bowed out in the last decade and were replaced, with the exception of Anderson, with CEOs new to that position and with far fewer trials by fire under their belts.

 

[Pi brat]

Oscar,

You claim that I got so many things wrong, but then don't really point out much by way of any error in my statement.

Told you oscar.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Told you oscar.

Glad I could help you get at least one thing right today PI. (just kidding, you know I love you like a brother).

 

[prechilill]

There were more than a couple. PI was like that, if you did a good job they would give people you believed in a CHANCE. Not all made it. In my class I was the only one that had the fleet manager, affectionately know as Darth Vader, meet him after the F/E written and observe one of his sim sessions.

On discipline we agree, but you don't have to worry about whether I received it. My Mom was one of twelve children, my Dad one of seven and all those aunts and uncles watched as close as Mom and Dad. A tobacco field made a pretty good training field for life.

Some people have no choice but to face gunnie, others really need it. I'm not sure which category you fell into, but I truly thank you for your service.

I wasn't called and decided not to go to the military. Since my boss would leave me at the FBO all night when I was 16, I guess I'd matured okay. I saw a different view of AVL than you did. Often at the bottom of a lav hose hooked to a PI 727, at 2 degrees with a 25 kt wind. Trust me, that builds character too, and many of my friends followed the same path and it was one PI liked. I was lucky, but I worked hard and gave up a lot to take advantage of my opportunities.

Very well, PI! Have a nice weekend

 

[nic4us]

Glad I could help you get at least one thing right today PI. (just kidding, you know I love you like a brother).

I have six brothers. We fight like east and West pilots, but at the end of the day, we are still brothers.

 

[Move2CLT]

Once again the west owes a sincere thanks to USAPA. I just got my class actionnotice today from the ompany. .Here's what It means:

All, this is the class notice which legally notifies all of us who are not named plaintiffs that there is a suit ongoing that will affect your rights. In what's called "B3" cases (the ones involving lots of $$$), class notices are critical elements in harvesting the tons of cash for the attorneys. Hence, they're heavily litigated. Our case is a B2 case which in the legal world should be a giant yawn, but that didn't stop USAPA from making a huge issue out of it, thus forcing the West to incur additional expenses litigating the trivial and the obvious. I've attached the court filing.

What to take from this: read it carefully and notice how you've never seen anything like this before with respect to your job as a unionized worker. There is a good reason for that - unions were given the nearly absolute power to bind their principals (members). The East has screwed themselves so badly by eliminating our separate agent (AWA MEC) and this filing is proof of that. Carry it with you on your trip and be sure to show an Easties. It's precisely because of this legal reality that there cannot be any sort of compromise - it's legally impossible under the machinery of class actions as applied to our case. That's why we have unions in the first place. It's only in the extremely unusual situations like the one we're in will there be utilization of the very clunky, class action machinery to resolve a union matter. If they wanted a deal, they should have kept the AWA MEC in place, find the handful of Judas Iscariots we have in our ranks and put them on the MEC, pay them a couple tens of millions of dollars to buy them off and then have them seal a deal. With our own agents signing off, I'll be the first to tell you that the case would have been very difficult absent direct evidence of the corruption. Now even that far out scenario isn't possible. A deal under the class action machinery allows every member to petition the court to be "opted out" of any settlement. It's a highly contentious process in the real class actions, but I really have no idea what Judge Silver would rule in our case. You talk about crazy; her having to decide whether or not West pilots could opt out would assuredly create appeals for several more years and not to mention, novel case law. Practically speaking, it wouldn't work; which goes right back to Tashima's inane opinion. All he did is create more pitfalls for the district judges, union members, unions and corporations. He had a chance to cement the obvious into law - binding meant binding - but.....here we are.


One more thing. When you're showing this Notice to an Eastie, be sure to explain that the class certification is only applicable to the company's declaratory action. Make sure they understand that we're only a class for the purposes of the company's very specific lawsuit. Once that matter is resolved or goes away, there is no more class.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Once again the west owes a sincere thanks to USAPA. I just got my class actionnotice today from the ompany. .Here's what It means:

All, this is the class notice which legally notifies all of us who are not named plaintiffs that there is a suit ongoing that will affect your rights. In what's called "B3" cases (the ones involving lots of $$$), class notices are critical elements in harvesting the tons of cash for the attorneys. Hence, they're heavily litigated. Our case is a B2 case which in the legal world should be a giant yawn, but that didn't stop USAPA from making a huge issue out of it, thus forcing the West to incur additional expenses litigating the trivial and the obvious. I've attached the court filing.

What to take from this: read it carefully and notice how you've never seen anything like this before with respect to your job as a unionized worker. There is a good reason for that - unions were given the nearly absolute power to bind their principals (members). The East has screwed themselves so badly by eliminating our separate agent (AWA MEC) and this filing is proof of that. Carry it with you on your trip and be sure to show an Easties. It's precisely because of this legal reality that there cannot be any sort of compromise - it's legally impossible under the machinery of class actions as applied to our case. That's why we have unions in the first place. It's only in the extremely unusual situations like the one we're in will there be utilization of the very clunky, class action machinery to resolve a union matter. If they wanted a deal, they should have kept the AWA MEC in place, find the handful of Judas Iscariots we have in our ranks and put them on the MEC, pay them a couple tens of millions of dollars to buy them off and then have them seal a deal. With our own agents signing off, I'll be the first to tell you that the case would have been very difficult absent direct evidence of the corruption. Now even that far out scenario isn't possible. A deal under the class action machinery allows every member to petition the court to be "opted out" of any settlement. It's a highly contentious process in the real class actions, but I really have no idea what Judge Silver would rule in our case. You talk about crazy; her having to decide whether or not West pilots could opt out would assuredly create appeals for several more years and not to mention, novel case law. Practically speaking, it wouldn't work; which goes right back to Tashima's inane opinion. All he did is create more pitfalls for the district judges, union members, unions and corporations. He had a chance to cement the obvious into law - binding meant binding - but.....here we are.


One more thing. When you're showing this Notice to an Eastie, be sure to explain that the class certification is only applicable to the company's declaratory action. Make sure they understand that we're only a class for the purposes of the company's very specific lawsuit. Once that matter is resolved or goes away, there is no more class.

Well that $$$$ issue aint stopped you before, besides 2 mill for WAKE peanuts! MM!

 

[fodase]

Well that $$$$ issue aint stopped you before, besides 2 mill for WAKE peanuts! MM!

Have you not seen the
company filings they tell Judge Silver to look over the Addington case for guidance well worth $2 million