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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Eric is an identity stealing lawyer. He is laughed at by Parker. Do a seniority deal with Allied Pilots that stacks the cards in their favor in5- 8 years and the NIC. Is DOA. Remember how Move2Kohler said she would cross a picket line? Believe it. She will. Slam these seniority thieves in the hurt locker and lose the key. Nobody in the industry ever trusted an AWA pilot.

Hello lying scab, me again!!

Move2 never said he would cross a picket line.

You may be thinking of Prechill or some other West poster, but they never said they would cross a line either, they said they would cross a line of stiking usapa scabs, big difference.
 
Making the Nicolau Doug’s Problem
Fellow Pilots,

The purpose of this communication is to speak not only from the perspective of a pilot running for the office of Vice President of USAPA, but also from the perspective of representing people as a divorce attorney. Divorces by their nature are highly emotional and can be quite explosive, and I think there is a correlation to the East/West seniority dispute.

What I have witnessed first hand is how expensive emotion can be in our legal system. The gravest mistake in divorces is when someone looks to the law not as a means to a resolution, but as a tool to redress past wrongs beyond which the law allows. When one spouse “goes there,” the other spouse invariably has no other choice but to fight. Thus begins a legal battle that consumes vast amounts of time and money, with the result being little to no advantage being gained by either of the litigants

Our situation has all the elements of a bad divorce, except that when these proceedings are over we will be sharing a flight deck, rather than go our own ways: hard feelings, painful losses which the East brought into the marriage, an employer who does more to foment discontent and turmoil within the pilot ranks by whipsawing and playing one “spouse” against the other, and of course the whisperings of an unscrupulous attorney bent on selling a legal strategy that is clearly not workable. All of these elements have led to the quagmire in which we now find ourselves.

The first step in getting out is to objectively evaluate what has not worked, identify and correct the failures, and move on. The first place to start is the founding tenet of USAPA – DOH – as it is built upon a foundation of broad generalizations of the law that cannot support the weight of the facts. I will explain as briefly as possible why any list other than the Nicolau is legally impossible, and why pursuit of any seniority list other than the Nicolau will only result in LOA93 and C2004 for as far as the eye can see. Please do not take this communication as a West pilot trying to point a finger and say, “I told you so.” It is imperative that both East and West strip emotion from our discourse, and especially from this election, and look at every fact objectively. Objectivity starts now.

I am speaking frankly when I say that the Nicolau is not going to disappear. The reason is that the (perceived) fairness of the Nicolau will never be a legal issue. What is at issue is USAPA’s Duty to Fairly Represent. That analysis centers around USAPA’s founding principle – to use the East’s majority voting advantage to nullify the Nicolau, and replace it with another seniority list that clearly benefits the East over the West. This founding principle, however, is fatally flawed at its core and will never work. Allow me to explain why.

First, the founders of USAPA pointed to broad principles of labor law to create the illusion that vested in the majority is an absolute right to negotiate seniority. They cite to general labor principles but at the same time don’t anchor those principles with facts. To say that a union has an “absolute right to negotiate seniority” is just flat wrong. There are no “absolute rights” anywhere in our legal system. Property can be taken, speech can be curtailed, and even a person’s life can be extinguished. In pursuit of its non-Nicolau objective, the USAPA leadership erroneously conflates rights with power. There is a big difference between having the power to do something versus having the right to do something. Just because we have the power to act does not mean we have the absolute right to act; duties and obligations are but two avenues in which the state limits what we can do. We see limits on what we can do everywhere in the law, even in our most private and intimate relationships. For example, parents enjoy considerable dominion over their children, yet these parental rights are limited by obligations imposed by the law. In the context of a labor union, the union has wide latitude in how it bargains for its members, but, that power is limited by the union’s Duty to Fairly Represent . With power comes limits, and here the limit is the DFR.

The second fatal flaw in USAPA’s founding tenet is the appeal to general principles of law only, and without grounding the law to a set of facts. We have heard time and again from the founders of USAPA that unions are afforded a “wide range of reasonableness.” In the abstract, that is a true statement. But, law in the abstract is virtually meaningless. Facts are what provide direction to the law. Facts establish dimensionality so the law can be effectively applied to a case. Like every other case in the legal universe, ours turns on the facts, and the facts here are quite onerous for USAPA’s pursuit of a non-Nicolau. This is precisely why USAPA has all along maintained that what transpired prior to the formation of USAPA has no bearing on what USAPA does subsequently. One federal judge has already characterized this argument as offensive to common sense and the law. Changing unions did nothing to alter the facts in our dispute. Here, the Transition Agreement always has been and always will be the fact-origin.

In addition to the above noted flaws in USAPA’s founding tenet, there is one more complication heaped upon our situation, courtesy of USAPA’s founding counsel. If there was any possibility of a negotiated compromise outside of the courts, that door was slammed closed by Seham’s application for Single Transportation System (STS). The STS application was granted by the National Mediation Board in January of 2008 (35 NMB 20) and had the effect of eliminating separate East and West bargaining agents. ALPA objected, and for good reason, but eliminating separate representation was necessary to effect the DOH cram down. The price, however, was eliminating any chance of a negotiated solution. It is for this reason that the legal question is parsed in Nicolau versus non-Nicolau instead of Nicolau versus DOH or Nicolau versus DOH with C&Rs. There is no in-between

So, here we are. At this point, the only thing being accomplished by pursuing a non-Nicolau seniority list is that a lot of time and money is being wasted. Regardless of what Doug says at Crew News sessions, regardless of whether we merge with AMR, Southwest, or Aeroflot, pay attention to what Doug’s lawyers are saying in court: USAPA’s actions regarding seniority are directly tied to its Duty to Fairly Represent. That analysis tracks all the way back to ALPA Merger Policy, the signed Transition Agreement, execution and acceptance of the seniority arbitration, and a jury finding that there was no legitimate purpose for USAPA to negotiate away from the Nicolau. USAPA’s aim for a non-Nicolau does not comport with the law, otherwise Doug would have had the “cost neutral” contract as promised by Lee Seham, and the East would have had DOH a long time ago. The sooner we accept the irreconcilability of non-Nicolau with the law, the sooner we can move on.

To date, Ferguson, Holmes and I are the only candidates articulating this legal reality. We want nothing more than to unify this group and take away the “free pass” that our internal strife has afforded US Airways management, and we do that by making the Nicolau Doug’s problem.



Sincerely,



Jeff Koontz
www.koontzforvp.com
 
Here is the thing, I have been offline about 2 hours, and in that 2 hours one thing is apparant. Eric's campaign is built on one thing and one thing only, implement the NIC. he has nothing past that and no plan as how to even do his primary task of implementing the NIC.

Every west poster on here seems to think that any east guy that opposes NIC supports DOH. Even after we have told you time and again that is not the case for most on the east.

Now the candidate that I am looking to elect will be the one that is not afraid to piss off BOTH the east and west to really get us moving in the correct direction. Cleary has always been tied to the DOH and in doing so he had zero chance of enough unity to do squat. The injunction is proof of that. east was attemping to put pressure on the company and the west was doing everything it could to help the company.

Now suppose we elect Eric in the office....exact same results, Zero unity since he will push for full unmodified NIC and wont have any unity to do squat with either.

Face it, DOH and NIC leads down the same path. You may have NIC on paper, but how are you ever going to get any T/A passed when the majority of the pilots gets shafted? On the flip side you might have DOH on paper but how are you ever going to get any contract with it when the west will sue? Both sides lead to the same place.

You really want a candidate that can lead us out of this and get a decent contract? We need one that does not give a rats ass about DOH or NIC and has the balls to sit down and come up with something that can be passed by the majority of pilots on both sides. Everything else is just pissing in the wind. You know it, I know it, Cleary knows it, Furgeson knows it. And Doug is loving everyminute of it, since no matter which side NIC or DOH wins this election he knows he won't have to come up with a new contract.

ummm....what the majority can pass either contains the Nic, or the West sues, end of story.

edited by me,,,

Forgot to add, vote for the candidate you like best,,,I think the election has a 35% chance of being found illegal again, and you all have to do a do-over, at the cost of around $200k
 
US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Domestic Base Hourly Pay Rates Comparison

TOS

American - $46.00
Continental - $52.53
Delta - $45.73
United - $43.73
US Airways - $46.00

Click here to read the report.


US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Carrier Premium Pay Comparison

US Airways' F/A's now have industry leading premium pay rate

Click here to read the report.


US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Carrier Sick, Vacation, and Duty Rigs Comparison

US Airways' F/A's now have industry leading Sick, Vacation, and Duty Rigs

Click here to read the report.
 
US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Domestic Base Hourly Pay Rates Comparison

TOS

American - $46.00
Continental - $52.53
Delta - $45.73
United - $43.73
US Airways - $46.00

Click here to read the report.


US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Carrier Premium Pay Comparison

US Airways' F/A's now have industry leading premium pay rate

Click here to read the report.


US Airways vs. American, Continental, Delta, & United Carrier Sick, Vacation, and Duty Rigs Comparison

US Airways' F/A's now have industry leading Sick, Vacation, and Duty Rigs

Click here to read the report.

I already stated my thoughts, the AFA will pass this TA by at least a 58% yes vote.


The thing I find funny, is the fact that the AFA got a contract mere days after the east FAs contract became amendable has the usapa stooges boiling over. I really did not expect the kings of delay to get all pissed about the fact that the FAs can get a contract post haste, but nobody will even talk to them at a negotiating table. You would think they lost the LOA93 grievence all over again.
 
I saw WILL. It stuck out. Maybe they changed it. If so, good.

You seem to see a lot of things that are there but put your own spin on them. "WILL" is different than "will pursue" in most people's minds even though both have the word "will". Just like Nic didn't take expectations into account but then took them into account the wrong way. You pick a word here or two there and build a federal case, but when that doesn't work you claim not to have done it and move on to another hail mary pass...

Jim
 
You seem to see a lot of things that are there but put your own spin on them. "WILL" is different than "will pursue" in most people's minds even though both have the word "will". Just like Nic didn't take expectations into account but then took them into account the wrong way. You pick a word here or two there and build a federal case, but when that doesn't work you claim not to have done it and move on to another hail mary pass...

Jim



From the Ferguson/Koontz blogs:


This
"If elected, we WILL be able to achieve a much better contract than this for the pilots of our highly profitable airline."

to this

"Eric Ferguson and Jeff Koontz, as the new USAPA President and Vice-President, WILL break the cycle of failure for US Airways pilots."

and this

"we will implement the arbitration award to pursue an industry-leading contract."

We will be able...........Will break the cycle........industry-leading. So, I guess I can say they didn't put all the words together, but looks like a promise to me when someone says "I will".
 
I did a search for ALPA merger policy 2005 and came upon a thread from here from 2005. Man, it is interesting to see how things have changed. Lynrdskynrd was classy then too, and Traderjake was......traderjake, but a few have really swung. I'm going to save the best one, but this was interesting:

"Recently saw the numbers of a " less senior " furloughed pilot in the seniority number range of around 4800. His projected sen. # at age 55 is less than 100 and top ten at age 60. These calculations were based on alpa (east) projections ( not included awa list ) and not subjective.
"

FA


I think I understand what you are saying; should U Air have stayed in business, then this pilot would have retired in the top ten just based on attrition alone. But it's likely his or her seniority number would have been meaningless in the near future had the AWA merger not occured. Plus, it would be difficult to say he gets screwed in this given his long time left flying. Even if he were put at the absolute bottom (I doubt very seriously that will happen) but just for the sake of argument, if he did go to the bottom he'd still be a captain sooner because there would be U retirements plus the AWA retirements. In effect, he'd have the advantage of U+AWA pilots retiring, instead of just U pilot retirements. But I doubt the furloughees with 15 years of longevity will go to the bottom. My guess on the ultimate integration will be to integrate using a weighted longevity formula. Somebody with fifteen years at U that's now on the street is likely to integrate somewhere around senior AWA f/o or perhaps very junior captain. But that's just a guess.

Look at those last two sentences. I was really surprised to see who it came from. Guesses? 🙂
 
From the Ferguson/Koontz blogs:


This
"If elected, we WILL be able to achieve a much better contract than this for the pilots of our highly profitable airline."

to this

"Eric Ferguson and Jeff Koontz, as the new USAPA President and Vice-President, WILL break the cycle of failure for US Airways pilots."

and this

"we will implement the arbitration award to pursue an industry-leading contract."

We will be able...........Will break the cycle........industry-leading. So, I guess I can say they didn't put all the words together, but looks like a promise to me when someone says "I will".

So why don't you vote them in and see if they follow through?
 
This one is even better!!!!

"Given my place, it won't make much of a difference whether there is a dovetail or longevity based integration. I suspect I'd end up right around the 90-91 hires. I'm a somewhat senior f/o by the way.'

If this poster is who I think he is, he ended up slotted with '86 hires and now doesn't think there was a windfall!
 
It gets better. I haven't posted his previous posts, but he didn't think DOH was fair, but longevity was. Let's join in:

"I'd like to say one more thing about the integration: the focus needs to be on results, not applications. Just because a method is applied uniformly does not make it fair. Lots of ideas seem fair, but all ideas should be put to the test and judged according to the result. It's not fairness in the application we should seek but fairness in the result because it's the result we all have to live with. Applying "actual date" DOH without more may seem to be fair in its application (uniform throughout both pilot ranks) but the result would effectively be a staple. Nobody can possibly say that is the path to fairness. Now, longevity is a different issue and can easily be considered along with age, career expectations, etc."


This is fun, excuse me I have to get back to reading........
 
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