US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

Don't let that lawyer talk you again into suing for a case that isn't ripe. He should give you your money back for the first time.

Are you enjoying LOA 93 wages? Maybe we can retire on them.

 

[Metroyet]

Truth Hurts.





My link

 

[Pi brat]

What exactly do you want "both sides" to acknowledge and how do you envision a final resolution that is acceptable to enough east and west pilots for it to see a JCBA become ratified? Let's try it just between you and me and see how far we get...

CG is willing to admit that:
1. The east pilots who were furloughed or held a position at MDA at the time of the merger/integration date would be at the bottom of the combined seniority list and will have a difficult if not impossible time seeing the left seat or WB opportunities depending on how much time they have left before mandatory retirement. Of course that assumes that US will not grow substantially in international flying over the course of time and create many more upgrade opportunities than what may exist today. Conversely if US shrinks substantially then even those guys you predict to make WB in their careers would not in fact get where you project them to go. Predicting the future is a two-way street; you can be just as wrong one way as you are the other which make future assumptions or "career expectations" to some, about a reliable as Punxsutawney Phil.

2. The right seat and smaller AC generally translate to lower earning power than the left seat or larger AC by comparison. Those that can only hold the right seat on smaller AC throughout their active flying careers will earn far less than those who can hold and bid for flying that pays substantially more. Again, those who held a lower percentile seniority position or who were furloughed at the integration date are likely effected the most by this reality.

3. The lower a person's seniority number the less chance that pilot has to pick the best work schedule that meets their personal preferences. And once again, those who held a lower percentile seniority position or who were furloughed at the integration date are likely effected the most by this reality.

4. The pilot Transition Agreement called for the use of ALPA merger and integration policy which included a binding arbitration provision. That TA was signed by all parties required and is legally a Collective Bargaining Agreement as defined and covered by the RLA and it is just as enforceable at LOA93 or C2004 on the Company, the pilots employed by US Airways, and any successor bargaining agent which may be certified to represent the pilots.

5. Other than agreeing to and signing off on the TA, the west pilots are not responsible for any of the above-listed statements of fact. The west pilots did not cause east pilots to be furloughed or to have a very junior seniority position despite the fact that these east pilots may have been hired or been in the service of US Airways (or a predecessor airline) for 16-20 years ago jut st to be able to retain a very junior status. Furthermore, the west pilots did not create or unduly influence the arbitration process and had no more control over the outcome of the Nicolau award than did any or all east pilots. The west pilots were and are just as bound by the results of the award as are the east pilots. Likewise, the west pilots did not create the industry practice of having payscales and work rules that favor those with more seniority at the expense of those who have little to no seniority status.


Okay, now it's your turn. I'll start you off with the first item that I think you need to admit so that a two-way, solution can be achieved. Feel free to fill in other statements of fact that you know or believe those on the east must admit as part acknowledging the west's viewpoint and thus gain "bipartisan" support to move forward together with:

1. The Nicolau Award for the SLI is the only list that USAPA and Management can legally adopt as the S22 seniority system. If any other list is used, just one of the 5,000 or so east and west pilots could files for a DRF, and has been shown in the district court under Addington I, the chances are good for both USAPA and the Company to lose if such a claim is made. In this instance the minority (even if only one) rules as opposed to the majority which is the exact intent of the DFR provision in the first place. Thus, whatever solution or proposal is devised must include the NIC as a starting point for moving forward.

2.

3.

4.

Those were really great things you admitted there CG. Really, I'm touched. When I compose myself I will get back to you.

Okay, I've recovered.

Basically your POV is that they are so screwed, what's a little more? Their career has been so bad, what does it matter that now that the time has come for them to move up, that is shifted to the west?

Is that WJWD?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Those were really great thing you admitted there CG. Really, I'm touched. When I compose myself I will get back to you.

Okay, I've recovered.

Basically your POV is that they are so screwed, what's a little more? Their career has been so bad, what does it matter that now that the time has come for them to move up, that is shifted to the west?

Is that WJWD?

So I take it you don't want to work on a viable solution that takes factors that cannot be changed into account along with those that can be changed? Here, I'll make it easy for you PI. Tell me what you would propose under the following two scenarios:

1. Judge Silver rules in favor of Count 2 and declares that USAPA submitting a non-NIC list is not a DFR and that neither USAPA nor the Company should fear any liability for freely negotiating a new seniority system. What seniority status would you give the formerly furloughed/MDA east pilots and then where would the west pilots fall in your grand scheme? Would your POV be that the west was screwed on 9/27/2005 and that's just too bad, or would you do something different?

2. Judge Silver rules in favor of count 1 and declares than any non-NIC list is a clear DFR. Then USAPA appeals to the Ninth and they refuse to hear the case leaving USAPA with no other option to escape the3 NIC. And, being under federally mediated contract talks, what would you recommend USAPA negotiators do at that point in this process? In other words, how would you propose dealing with the most junior east pilots on the NIC list once you finally acknowledge that there will be no SLI modifications away from the 5/1/2007 award so they will remain exactly where the award placed them?

What would PI do?

 

[Pi brat]

So I take it you don't want to work on a viable solution that takes factors that cannot be changed into account along with those that can be changed? Here, I'll make it easy for you PI. Tell me what you would propose under the following two scenarios:

1. Judge Silver rules in favor of Count 2 and declares that USAPA submitting a non-NIC list is not a DFR and that neither USAPA nor the Company should fear any liability for freely negotiating a new seniority system. What seniority status would you give the formerly furloughed/MDA east pilots and then where would the west pilots fall in your grand scheme? Would your POV be that the west was screwed on 9/27/2005 and that's just too bad, or would you do something different?

2. Judge Silver rules in favor of count 1 and declares than any non-NIC list is a clear DFR. Then USAPA appeals to the Ninth and they refuse to hear the case leaving USAPA with no other option to escape the3 NIC. And, being under federally mediated contract talks, what would you recommend USAPA negotiators do at that point in this process? In other words, how would you propose dealing with the most junior east pilots on the NIC list once you finally acknowledge that there will be no SLI modifications away from the 5/1/2007 award so they will remain exactly where the award placed them?

What would PI do?

Cut the crap CG. I am not in a place to come up with any solution, and even if I were, you wouldn't listen because you know it all. From morality, to business, you have the answers.

Right now, I really don't care. I've talked to 2 out of 3 of your guys, several of ours and I feel that our fate is sealed. If you have enjoyed the last 5 years, then I have good news: You are in for the same.

BTW, one of your boys disagrees with you view of how things will go with Silver. We'll see, but unfortunately it will be too late to change officers then.

 

[BLT]

Do you really want DOH?

If USAPA is legally correct and a majority of pilots can rearrange seniority to suit their fancy, what happens in the next merger? We are not merging with a smaller carrier but more likely Delta or American. If we go to arbitration and the American pilots or Delta pilots don't like it, aren't we then hosed?

If we go into a merger with the current pay rates, aren't we already hosed? When east captains make less than the fo's at the airline we may merge with, where do you end up on that seniority list? East captains get slotted next to 5 year fo's. All of our fo's will be stapled.

USAPA may be the worst thing that has ever happened to US Airways' pilots.

If we don't have a new contract before the next merger we will all be on the bottom half of the next seniority list.

Thank you to the founders of USAPA and the supporters of DOH for dividing this pilot group so thoroughly, and failing so completely. We will remember you.

Don't forget to vote.

USAPA keeps kicking itself in the balls hoping to hurt someone else.

As Susan Powter said "Stop the insanity!".

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Do you really want DOH?


If we don't have a new contract before the next merger we will all be on the bottom half of the next seniority list.

Really on whose authority?, with 2billion due in less than 2 years, I doubt DUI will be invited to any merger! MM! LUV, JBLU, ALAK, much more likely!

 

[BLT]

Really on whose authority?, with 2billion due in less than 2 years, I doubt DUI will be invited to any merger! MM! LUV, JBLU, ALAK, much more likely!

Problem, what problem? [Bury head in sand.] Aaaah, thats better.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Cut the crap CG. I am not in a place to come up with any solution, and even if I were, you wouldn't listen because you know it all. From morality, to business, you have the answers.

Right now, I really don't care. I've talked to 2 out of 3 of your guys, several of ours and I feel that our fate is sealed. If you have enjoyed the last 5 years, then I have good news: You are in for the same.

BTW, one of your boys disagrees with you view of how things will go with Silver. We'll see, but unfortunately it will be too late to change officers then.

You were the one who started the conversation about getting posters to see things from the east perspective. I took you at your word and I tried to engage you by affirming that I am not blind to the challenges faced by those who were placed at the bottom of the NIC list. I still acknowledge that this is not an enviable position for anyone who hired on 15-20+ years ago. They didn't do anything wrong that I'm aware of other than to have joined and airline that was financially and operationally constrained for the better part of their tenure until the merger occurred. Other than falsely telling you something I absolutely do not believe such as the award was wrong, unfair or created a windfall, what else would you like for me to acknowledge?

How is asking you to proffer a solution in one of the two most likely outcomes of the DJ case dishing out "crap"? Do you have any solutions or do you just like to speak against other peoples' positions and understandings of the facts but can't put down your weapons (keyboard) long enough to engage in a productive and meaningful conversation?

My suggestion long ago to the east was to work to decertify USAPA and to go unrepresented. This would kill the requirement to use the NIC immediately because it would not longer apply to the east/west pilots. Everyone could sit back and see how the Flight Ops management would handle the scheduling and placement of pilots and also how they would handle the equal pay for equal work requirements of at-will employees. Then, if the pilots decided that Management wasn't doing better than what a CBA could accomplish for them, another CBA election could be held and then you could start back and square one, but still with not Nicolau award. I maintain that this scenario is and forevermore will be the only way for the Nicolau award to be vacated.

Absent that, if Silver rules in favor of count 2, then there is likely little else the west pilots can do to stop the DOH freight train. The Company will be free and obligated to accept a S22 list from USAPA and to move towards a JCBA. The west class can try for another DFR, but in light of Silver ruled in this scenario, it would be tough to gain much traction and the odds for success would be slim. Even slimmer in my view would be the idea that USAPA would lift a finger to help the west or to ensure that the impact of all of this was mitigated to a great extent. If that happened, would you PI come out and demand that USAPA provide better protections and pay to the west like you are for the furloughed east pilots today, or would you wander off into silent complicity?

If Silver rules in favor of count 1, then I would support moving forward asap to fully and finally put the TA and merger integration behind. I would urge the east pilots to stop trying to fight a battle that is already lost and to accept the new and unwelcomed reality of what placing your fate in the hands of others (CBA/arbitrator) has cost them so that they can finally get on with life, or just quit in protest and find something else to do.

That wasn't too hard for me; why is offering your opinion and solutions to fix this so difficult for you?

 

[BLT]

Absent that, if Silver rules in favor of count 2, then there is likely little else the west pilots can do to stop the DOH freight train. The Company will be free and obligated to accept a S22 list from USAPA and to move towards a JCBA. The west class can try for another DFR, but in light of Silver ruled in this scenario, it would be tough to gain much traction and the odds for success would be slim. Even slimmer in my view would be the idea that USAPA would lift a finger to help the west or to ensure that the impact of all of this was mitigated to a great extent. If that happened, would you PI come out and demand that USAPA provide better protections and pay to the west like you are for the furloughed east pilots today, or would you wander off into silent complicity?

If Silver rules in favor of count 2 then can the east create any seniority list it so desires? Why would they not just staple all west pilots to the bottom and say here is our list? The DOH list has already been deemed a DFR by a jury, but if this case makes another DFR case unfruitful. What is to stop USAPA from imposing any sort of list it desires? We all know the company is neutral and couldn't give a rats ass other than to lock us all into bankruptcy wages for eternity. If stapling all west pilots makes USAPA happy, Silver says they are free to negotiate a list of their choosing, and the company gets a concessionary contract, then why not screw those west pilots as much as you can?

 

[CallawayGolf]

If Silver rules in favor of count 2 then can the east create any seniority list it so desires? Why would they not just staple all west pilots to the bottom and say here is our list? The DOH list has already been deemed a DFR by a jury, but if this case makes another DFR case unfruitful. What is to stop USAPA from imposing any sort of list it desires? We all know the company is neutral and couldn't give a rats ass other than to lock us all into bankruptcy wages for eternity. If stapling all west pilots makes USAPA happy, Silver says they are free to negotiate a list of their choosing, and the company gets a concessionary contract, then why not screw those west pilots as much as you can?

Under Cleary or Bradford I think they would try to ensure that any and all possible gains and benefits go east rather than west. No telling what new east leadership might do, but the DOH list with C&Rs that USAPA has floated out there is an attempt IMO to appear reasonable to the NMB and to the courts even though everyone knows how much they would love to advance the east at the expense of the west.

What I am saying is that is silver affirms count 2 (I absolutely don't see that happening, but this is a what-if speculation), then she is in effect saying that she agrees with USAPA's claims that because they are a new bargaining unit, they are not bound by anything regarding the SLI and are truly free to negotiate within a "wide range of reasonableness. I'm sure USAPA zealots would say that DOH with zero C&Rs is very reasonable but there may also be more nefariousness ways to stick it to the west beyond a pure DOH list. If that kind of list can be constructed (probably already has been), then how is the Company going to refuse that in light of Silver opting for count 2? Then all other sections of the JCBA will have to be closed and a TA will have to be ratified. Once that occurs in this scenario, then I believe that is when the west can try for DFRII. Because the Ninth has already been exposed to this case before and then because Silver claimed a no DFR position, then a new DFR II lawsuit would be an exceedingly uphill battle to win. Again, I don't think there is hardly a chance of this happening, but I do think this would be the likely outcome if Silver not only gives the Company a pass on vacating the NIC (count 3), but also gives USAPA a pass as well. The next federal judge to view this will be quite gun shy about stepping into a matter that has already been advanced and ruled on twice before.

 

[Pi brat]

If Silver rules in favor of count 1, then I would support moving forward asap to fully and finally put the TA and merger integration behind. I would urge the east pilots to stop trying to fight a battle that is already lost and to accept the new and unwelcomed reality of what placing your fate in the hands of others (CBA/arbitrator) has cost them so that they can finally get on with life, or just quit in protest and find something else to do.

That wasn't too hard for me; why is offering your opinion and solutions to fix this so difficult for you?

THIS is you suggestion for a fix? You have stated that you believe that count 1 is the "logical" result, so your solution is to say "eat it boys, life's a ####", yet you have the nerve to ask "If that happened, would you PI come out and demand that USAPA provide better protections and pay to the west like you are for the furloughed east pilots today, or would you wander off into silent complicity?" You say eat it, but I'm supposed to do more? So typical.

Actually I have already suggested that USAPA do more for the west if they are actually able to pull off DOH. I suggested a complete overhaul of the C&Rs, with west input and with west furlough protection, as that seems to be the biggest fear of the west with DOH. I see us all losing if we are successful in getting DOH(remote chance IMHO) and we do not do more for the west. As I said yesterday, using the issues I have with the Nic, DOH is worse for the west than the Nic is for us. We will be locked in perpetual hate if we do not alter our position. I see the same if the west doesn't acknowledge that the Nic is not fair along all seniority ranges and the east are told "tough".

Your turn. What have you suggested to your candidates. Oh wait, you already said that. Nothing. Since you don't have to take the time to come up with anything on that, how about tackling the fairness of the Nic throughout the list instead of your west, "go to vegas reply".

 

[Move2CLT]

I see the same if the west doesn't acknowledge that the Nic is not fair along all seniority ranges and the east are told "tough".

Which part of "we have no one to represent our interests in altering the Nic" do you not get?

 

[Move2CLT]

Oh, and I forget to add:

"eat it boys, life's a ####"

 

[Pi brat]

Which part of "we have no one to represent our interests in altering the Nic" do you not get?

Leonidas LLC Objectives

We, the former pilots of America West Airlines, hereby declare the following:


We will aggressively seek any and all available legal remedies against any party which might seek to dilute our rights.
We will not tolerate discrimination against the pilots of America West in any form, including the dilution of the Nicolau Award by any means, contractual or otherwise.

This your presidential candidate speaking. It runs deeper than altering the Nic. There are things that can be done without altering the Nic, but I believe they have no intention of doing so. So be it.