US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Oh, and I forget to add:

"eat it boys, life's a ####"

Yeah you did, and if Ferguson and company were honest that would be the banner on their website.

 

[CallawayGolf]

THIS is you suggestion for a fix? You have stated that you believe that count 1 is the "logical" result, so your solution is to say "eat it boys, life's a ####", yet you have the nerve to ask "If that happened, would you PI come out and demand that USAPA provide better protections and pay to the west like you are for the furloughed east pilots today, or would you wander off into silent complicity?" You say eat it, but I'm supposed to do more? So typical.

Actually I have already suggested that USAPA do more for the west if they are actually able to pull off DOH. I suggested a complete overhaul of the C&Rs, with west input and with west furlough protection, as that seems to be the biggest fear of the west with DOH. I see us all losing if we are successful in getting DOH(remote chance IMHO) and we do not do more for the west. As I said yesterday, using the issues I have with the Nic, DOH is worse for the west than the Nic is for us. We will be locked in perpetual hate if we do not alter our position. I see the same if the west doesn't acknowledge that the Nic is not fair along all seniority ranges and the east are told "tough".

Your turn. What have you suggested to your candidates. Oh wait, you already said that. Nothing.

That is a fix. S22 closed and progress towards a JCBA to put LOA93 and C2004 behind. Now, I didn't say what the other sections of the JCBA might contain to help those at the lower end of the seniority scale. If a federal court rules that any modification to the NIC is a DFR for USAPA and a hybrid DFR for the Company, then there isn't anything I or anyone else can do to change the seniority of those on the list. NIC plus any modifications equals a DFR and the Company will not bite at that apple if Silver affirms count 1. What more could you possibly want out of S22 if Silver essentially says the same thing as Wake and compels USAPA to pursue only the NIC or face substantial fines and penalties?

As for the rest, I don't know what is possible or what the majority of the members would support to help those with a low seniority status. The Company isn't going to add more money to the pot to make every pilot's dream pay scale come true, so there would have to be some give and take if anything at all is done. If a majority of pilots support a nice liberal wealth redistribution program, then there would be little to stop those earning the most to sacrifice their pay rates to buttress those at the bottom. If that is what is negotiated with a majority of pilots' support, then that's what will happen in the TA. If the majority don't support wealth redistribution within the pilot ranks, then the guys at the bottom will get from their fellow pilots, east and west, what they have likely expected all along - low pay and few options for upgrades unless the company grows fast enough to afford them new and better advancement opportunities. That's just the reality of what can and likely will happen if Silver affirms count 1 IMO. If you have a different opinion or a better solution then put it out there for us to see and discuss.

 

[Move2CLT]

Legal remedies against USAPA's actions.

Leonidas is here as a check and balance against USAPA - that's it. Nothing more. They're existence is to fight USAPA in the courts and assure that nothing else is used.

That's it.

They do not negotiate or renegotiate TA's or the contract on my behalf. I pay dues to USAPA for that.

Leonidas has expressly stated this and you have properly misinterpreted it.

Not everyone in the west is an AOL member and AOL is in no way a bargaining agent.

Next.

 

[Move2CLT]

Yeah you did, and if Ferguson and company were honest that would be the banner on their website.

No banner needed. You just need to listen harder to their talks. Its there.

You must be missing the message.

 

[Pi brat]

No banner needed. You just need to listen harder to their talks. Its there.

You must be missing the message.

No I got it loud and clear: EAT IT!

At least you are honest enough to say it out right.

 

[Pi brat]

Legal remedies against USAPA's actions.

Leonidas is here as a check and balance against USAPA - that's it. Nothing more. They're existence is to fight USAPA in the courts and assure that nothing else is used.

That's it.

They do not negotiate or renegotiate TA's or the contract on my behalf. I pay dues to USAPA for that.

Leonidas has expressly stated this and you have properly misinterpreted it.

Not everyone in the west is an AOL member and AOL is in no way a bargaining agent.

Next.

But it's founders are running for President and Vice President and I have no doubt they will carry it's essential tenants to the office with them.

I think they are going to win, so we will see how they do.

Next.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't let that lawyer talk you again into suing for a case that isn't ripe. He should give you your money back for the first time.

Are you also demanding money back from Seham? This is what presidential hopeful McKee the Cleary clone has to say.

This is the same Lee Seham who focused the Addington case on the duty of fair representation and completely failed to argue the salient legal points that, “as a newly certified bargaining representative, USAPA is absolutely entitled to negotiate seniority without regard to anything that the prior representative may have agreed to, including the Nicolau Award”. None of us should forget that the errors in this litigation cost our pilots and USAPA millions of dollars as we lost our case at trial and were forced to barely escape at the Appeals Court with a 2 to 1 decision.

2 out of 4 judges agreed it was ripe. McKee is making a strong statement that Seham made errors.

 

[fifidriver]

See right above you? Okay, here you go, I was wrong.

"most impressive.... young Skywalker."

 

[Pi brat]

That is a fix. S22 closed and progress towards a JCBA to put LOA93 and C2004 behind. Now, I didn't say what the other sections of the JCBA might contain to help those at the lower end of the seniority scale. If a federal court rules that any modification to the NIC is a DFR for USAPA and a hybrid DFR for the Company, then there isn't anything I or anyone else can do to change the seniority of those on the list. NIC plus any modifications equals a DFR and the Company will not bite at that apple if Silver affirms count 1. What more could you possibly want out of S22 if Silver essentially says the same thing as Wake and compels USAPA to pursue only the NIC or face substantial fines and penalties?

As for the rest, I don't know what is possible or what the majority of the members would support to help those with a low seniority status. The Company isn't going to add more money to the pot to make every pilot's dream pay scale come true, so there would have to be some give and take if anything at all is done. If a majority of pilots support a nice liberal wealth redistribution program, then there would be little to stop those earning the most to sacrifice their pay rates to buttress those at the bottom. If that is what is negotiated with a majority of pilots' support, then that's what will happen in the TA. If the majority don't support wealth redistribution within the pilot ranks, then the guys at the bottom will get from their fellow pilots, east and west, what they have likely expected all along - low pay and few options for upgrades unless the company grows fast enough to afford them new and better advancement opportunities. That's just the reality of what can and likely will happen if Silver affirms count 1 IMO. If you have a different opinion or a better solution then put it out there for us to see and discuss.

The Nic is a redistribution of wealth. It awards positions to those who did not go to work for a carrier that had them. Similar to welfare. So, since we had that redistribution a reverse would merely counteract it. A change to filling of vacancies and as simple as expanding the west's contractual provision of first right of refusal come to mind as ideas. Your a smart guy, try harder. You aren't wasting time trying to come up with B.S. support for Nic's obviously flawed logic(hint, that's a jab).

 

[SparrowHawk]

Are you also demanding money back from Seham? This is what presidential hopeful McKee the Cleary clone has to say.



2 out of 4 judges agreed it was ripe. McKee is making a strong statement that Seham made errors.

When this while thing started I did some looking around on line regarding Lee Seham. I've yet to find a major case where he has gotten a clear cut victory for his clients. I recall thinking to myself when I saw he had been retained, "Oh Boy! He'll drain the union dry with a protracted legal battle."

I think someone should drag his ass in front of the bar association and have him justify his fees and possibly a lawsuit for ineffective counsel as there are significant gaffe's in his strategy IMO. Clearly I don't like the guy, however near as I can tell he's a lousy lawyer and perhaps a corrupt one as well.

 

[Move2CLT]

No I got it loud and clear: EAT IT!

At least you are honest enough to say it out right.

I'm more of a "make your bed and lie in it" and "reap what you sow" type of guy to be honest.

 

[cleardirect]

Leonidas LLC Objectives

We, the former pilots of America West Airlines, hereby declare the following:


We will aggressively seek any and all available legal remedies against any party which might seek to dilute our rights.
We will not tolerate discrimination against the pilots of America West in any form, including the dilution of the Nicolau Award by any means, contractual or otherwise.

This your presidential candidate speaking. It runs deeper than altering the Nic. There are things that can be done without altering the Nic, but I believe they have no intention of doing so. So be it.

Things can be done without altering the Nicolau. Most of this seems to be focused on the lower end of the scale. I guess you guys want some special deal for them. We know the company is not going to add more money to make them feel better.

How about this? The WB guys give up their premium, get paid the same as a NW and give the money to the lower end of the scale. This solves a couple problems. Takes that incentive away so us west guys don't come take "your" WB seats. The senior east guys get to help out the junior east guys.

Does that work for anyone?

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Nic is a redistribution of wealth. It awards positions to those who did not go to work for a carrier that had them. Similar to welfare. So, since we had that redistribution a reverse would merely counteract it. A change to filling of vacancies and as simple as expanding the west's contractual provision of first right of refusal come to mind as ideas. Your a smart guy, try harder. You aren't wasting time trying to come up with B.S. support for Nic's obviously flawed logic(hint, that's a jab).

Back to attacking the NIC are we? I guess that is your default but should you be including things like - "in my opinion the Nic is a redistribution of wealth," in my opinion it awards positions to those who...", "in my opinion the Nic is similar to welfare"? You call me arrogant for stating clearly verifiable facts or offering my logic-based conclusion of the evidences I see before me, but then you turn around an make wholly unsubstantiated claims that you know for a fact I and most who hold to the idea that the NIC is fair, it is a compromise and it is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, don't agree with your biased opinion.

Riddle me this, why would any west pilot go out of their way once the NIC is fully and finally affirmed as the only valid list to help out the east pilots who have thumbed their noses at the west with their majority rules attitude for seven years? The east has cost the west pilots a great deal of money and have tried to bury them in the dunghill simply because they have asked that the results of binding arbitration be honored per the agreement? It's all take and no give with the east even when they lose the battle. Having suffered but a mere flesh wound (i.e severed arms and legs), the east says, alright, we'll call it a draw.

 

[cleardirect]

No I got it loud and clear: EAT IT!

At least you are honest enough to say it out right.

Are you talking about the 2 founders of usapa's running for office, McKee and Bradford?

McKee's campaign is all about "eat it" DOH. Bradford walked into PHX and said "eat it" DOH we are the majority.

 

[traderjake]

The Nic is a redistribution of wealth.

You mean the wealth of being unemployed?

Did you or did you not say you thought we would be liquidated?