So jake are YOU trying to recover you losses on the backs of west pilots? Eric said you were.
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So jake are YOU trying to recover you losses on the backs of west pilots? Eric said you were.
USA320Pilot
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What will the next merger look like?: February 14, 2012
Dear US Airways Pilots,
As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.
There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the US Airways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.
The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.
Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to US Airways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with US Airways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.
However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.
According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.
Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.
In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.
None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.
Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz
Dear US Airways Pilots,
As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.
There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the US Airways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.
The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.
Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to US Airways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with US Airways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.
However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.
According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.
Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.
In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.
None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.
Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz
Because I have seen YOUR work and true and accurate are not your strong suits.
If Nicolau's method was used with a merger between US and DL a whole lot more DL guys would end up on the top of the list than that. It would have all 747/777 captains, f'o's and iro's on top. Right?
USA320Pilot
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The "Third-Listers" Dilemma: February 13, 2012
Dear US Airways Pilots,
Of all the responses we have received in regard to our campaign materials, one group stands out because of the uniqueness of their concerns. That group would be the “Third-Listers.” On the bottom of both the Nicolau and USAPA’s proposed Date-of-Hire seniority list, their concerns appear to be centered around two topics: furlough protection in case of a merger, and the myth foisted upon them that the continuation of “Separate Operations” will result in a faster upgrade.
It is understandable why Third-Listers are concerned about USAPA’s DOH mandate in the event of a future merger, especially when merging with a carrier in bankruptcy like American which would bring several thousand furloughees to the seniority integration equation. Under USAPA’s DOH scheme, these furloughed pilots would go ahead of the Third-Listers, even though these LCC pilots bring actual jobs to the merger.
American currently has over 1600 pilots on furlough, the most senior of whom was hired in early 2000 and the most junior in 2004. AA recently announced another 400 furloughs, so the most senior AA furloughee will have a hire date much earlier than 2000. This would mean that furloughed AA pilots would not only be senior to all Third-Listers, the most senior AA furloughs would be senior to some 1000 East and West LCC pilots, increasing the risk that post-merger staffing reductions will be borne exclusively by LCC pilots who are currently actively employed. This scenario alone should be enough for every Third-Lister to support the Ferguson-Koontz-Holmes reform effort.
In addition, it appears that some candidates are courting the Third Listers’ vote insinuating that they would be better off under separate operations because it would result in a five-year upgrade for them. However, this statement is false and devoid of any connection to reality. Furthermore, USAPA and US Airways are obligated by the Railway Labor Act to, “…exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions…” This is reinforced by the direct obligations of the Transition Agreement that likewise require the carrier and the union to seek a single contract for both pilot groups. Anything short of a joint contract improving the welfare of ALL US Airways pilots would result in yet another Hybrid-DFR against the company and the union by the West pilots.
Furthermore, it should be obvious that the price for separate operations is having to live and work indefinitely under LOA93. In addition, it assumes that our current situation continues unchanged for the next five-to-ten years, an assumption that, considering the current turmoil in the industry and world economy, seems highly unlikely. Most importantly, the real and legitimate Age 65 retirement numbers (not the fictitious ones being floated by some) clearly prove that the five-year upgrade is patently false.
There are various “retirement lists” floating around the Internet showing preposterous retirement numbers. One even shows 308 East retirement in 2012 alone, even though retirements don’t start until mid December, 2012. For the record, there are only twelve Age 65 retirements in 2012 (9 East and 3 West).
USAPA’s own website shows that there are currently about 500 pilots Age 60 and older at our airline. The total amount of Age 65 retirements through the end of 2015 is around 700, about 560 of which are East (and many of those are First Officer retirements).
Take into account that approximately 550 East First Officers could currently hold Captain positions but have decided to bypass upgrade, and it should become glaringly obvious that the “five-year upgrade” sales pitch is as reliable and accurate as the latest Loch Ness Monster sighting. In reality, the average Third-Lister will not upgrade under current conditions for about 8 1/2 – 10 years, whether under the Nicolau, DOH, or Separate Operations. (This assumes the United States doesn’t follow Canada’s recent lead and eliminate the mandatory retirement age altogether in the next year or so).
By now it should be clear that the Third-Listers (and all other US Airways pilots) will be best served by leadership that is willing to move forward and achieve a new and Industry-Leading contract and that will also fight to protect the careers of ALL US Airways pilots. This means there is only one choice: Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes.
Sincerely,
Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz
Dear US Airways Pilots,
Of all the responses we have received in regard to our campaign materials, one group stands out because of the uniqueness of their concerns. That group would be the “Third-Listers.” On the bottom of both the Nicolau and USAPA’s proposed Date-of-Hire seniority list, their concerns appear to be centered around two topics: furlough protection in case of a merger, and the myth foisted upon them that the continuation of “Separate Operations” will result in a faster upgrade.
It is understandable why Third-Listers are concerned about USAPA’s DOH mandate in the event of a future merger, especially when merging with a carrier in bankruptcy like American which would bring several thousand furloughees to the seniority integration equation. Under USAPA’s DOH scheme, these furloughed pilots would go ahead of the Third-Listers, even though these LCC pilots bring actual jobs to the merger.
American currently has over 1600 pilots on furlough, the most senior of whom was hired in early 2000 and the most junior in 2004. AA recently announced another 400 furloughs, so the most senior AA furloughee will have a hire date much earlier than 2000. This would mean that furloughed AA pilots would not only be senior to all Third-Listers, the most senior AA furloughs would be senior to some 1000 East and West LCC pilots, increasing the risk that post-merger staffing reductions will be borne exclusively by LCC pilots who are currently actively employed. This scenario alone should be enough for every Third-Lister to support the Ferguson-Koontz-Holmes reform effort.
In addition, it appears that some candidates are courting the Third Listers’ vote insinuating that they would be better off under separate operations because it would result in a five-year upgrade for them. However, this statement is false and devoid of any connection to reality. Furthermore, USAPA and US Airways are obligated by the Railway Labor Act to, “…exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions…” This is reinforced by the direct obligations of the Transition Agreement that likewise require the carrier and the union to seek a single contract for both pilot groups. Anything short of a joint contract improving the welfare of ALL US Airways pilots would result in yet another Hybrid-DFR against the company and the union by the West pilots.
Furthermore, it should be obvious that the price for separate operations is having to live and work indefinitely under LOA93. In addition, it assumes that our current situation continues unchanged for the next five-to-ten years, an assumption that, considering the current turmoil in the industry and world economy, seems highly unlikely. Most importantly, the real and legitimate Age 65 retirement numbers (not the fictitious ones being floated by some) clearly prove that the five-year upgrade is patently false.
There are various “retirement lists” floating around the Internet showing preposterous retirement numbers. One even shows 308 East retirement in 2012 alone, even though retirements don’t start until mid December, 2012. For the record, there are only twelve Age 65 retirements in 2012 (9 East and 3 West).
USAPA’s own website shows that there are currently about 500 pilots Age 60 and older at our airline. The total amount of Age 65 retirements through the end of 2015 is around 700, about 560 of which are East (and many of those are First Officer retirements).
Take into account that approximately 550 East First Officers could currently hold Captain positions but have decided to bypass upgrade, and it should become glaringly obvious that the “five-year upgrade” sales pitch is as reliable and accurate as the latest Loch Ness Monster sighting. In reality, the average Third-Lister will not upgrade under current conditions for about 8 1/2 – 10 years, whether under the Nicolau, DOH, or Separate Operations. (This assumes the United States doesn’t follow Canada’s recent lead and eliminate the mandatory retirement age altogether in the next year or so).
By now it should be clear that the Third-Listers (and all other US Airways pilots) will be best served by leadership that is willing to move forward and achieve a new and Industry-Leading contract and that will also fight to protect the careers of ALL US Airways pilots. This means there is only one choice: Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes.
Sincerely,
Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz
Hey USA. You put your picks on PA, are you going to share them with us?
cactusboy53
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Yet the birth of USAPA is just exactly that. While you personally may have voted to keep ALPA, your pilot group alone is collectively responsible for the change to USAPA. USAPA's land grab at DOH at any and all costs is quite literally taking it from the only other entity in this equation.
Rather than accepting the results of final & binding arbitration and seeking remedy via a new and improved contract, Steve Bradford & the Down by the River gang foolishly chose to believe all the claims maid by chosen counsel.
This is NOT about Eric making a 12% (would you mind showing your math please). It is about deciding to follow proven inteligence & leadership that wants to deliver a much better contract sooner rather than later. The only other choice(s) is/are to remain with the status quo. Tough pill to swallow, but not that tough of a decision for many. The fact is that the seniority issue was decided nearly 5 years ago. Judge Silver will put the finishing touches on this event in the next few weeks (but wait! That means that USAPA will APPEAL - what a surprise!). USAPA (in it's current evolution) has bought only delay at tremendous personal cost to you and I.
I am sorry for the career loss that you have experienced. My career was just fine prior to May 2005. I/we will not simply lay down and negotiate away from an already agreed upon process and conclusion. We each have a vote. If Ferguson or any of the other candidates win: then the majority will have spoken.
You do know that the FA's are voting on a new TA, right? Did you know the rampers are negotiating a SECOND post merger contract? All this time fritters away and we keep watching the money FLY out the window. Wouldn't be nice to be in our SECOND post-merger contract. Heck, even the new DELTA pilots are doing that! What a shame!
cactusboy53
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I predict a SealBeater update ........(I cheated. His name was italisized below while I was reading the posts.... 🙄 )
Come on buddy....don't drop the ball now.....
Come on buddy....don't drop the ball now.....
Iclubbabyseals
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Under ALPA, the west would never have attained the "nic", as long a one east pilot could have voted it down (individually ratified). You keep ignoring how ALPA screwed the west. Like a dinosaur, the "nic" is dead.
BoeingBoy
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This from a guy who claimed not to be one of the "Forget 2005, it's 2012 that matters."
Jim
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traderjake
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Me, no. The DOH supporters, yes.
Proof. So easy even a retired pilot can do it. I asked before, but you slithered off without an answer.
So, want to answer my questions? How much time have you spent talking and or emailing the candidates? Have you decided who you will vote for?
BoeingBoy
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That's the problem with having so many differing positions - you have trouble remembering what you've posted...
Jim
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That's the problem with having so many differing positions - you have trouble remembering what you've posted...
Jim
Maybe a retired pilot can't do it. You make a claim but don't back it up, or answer my really simple questions. Just verbal circles. I'll ask again, how much time have you spent communicating with the candidates?
Have you seen this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVu9GhaJZcQ&feature=youtu.be FF to the 5:00 mark. See what Eric and Jeff say about what they WILL do.
I have to correct myself. In the video I was watching Eric did say the founders of USAPA, I apologize.
The % change is from the updated Nic list that one of your guys put out.
I know all about the other contracts and if WE had not gone down this road we might have been working on contract #2, but WE didn't.
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