US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Maybe a retired pilot can't do it. You make a claim but don't back it up

You have forgotten that series of posts already, haven't you. And it's only been a few days...

Let me refresh your memory. I used quotes to delineate a description of some east pilots - the "forget 2005, it's where we are now that matters" gang. You mistakenly thought that I was quoting you and demanded proof that that was the way you felt. Now you say

This from a guy that would receive a 12 percentage point jump in relative position if we flipped the switch on the Nic today.

and want proof of what you said before.

At least try to keep up with your own posts...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You have forgotten that series of posts already, haven't you. And it's only been a few days...

Let me refresh your memory. I used quotes to delineate a description of some east pilots - the "forget 2005, it's where we are now that matters" gang. You mistakenly thought that I was quoting you and demanded proof that that was the way you felt. Now you say


and want proof of what you said before.

At least try to keep up with your own posts...

Jim

I can't, but you can, yet you can't show me. Where did I say that 2005 didn't matter?

How much time have you spent talking to the candidates?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Where did I say that 2005 didn't matter?

Tell me then Pi - is where everyone was on the PID all that matters? Or do you believe that where everyone is today is all that matters? Here's your chance to state your position clearly, so which is it? No wishy-washy, beat around the bush, finger in the air to test the wind, keep your options open answers... Time to take a stance instead of being against whatever a westie says... 😛

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Tell me then Pi - is where everyone was on the PID all that matters? Or do you believe that where everyone is today is all that matters? Here's your chance to state your position clearly, so which is it? No wishy-washy, beat around the bush, finger in the air to test the wind, keep your options open answers... Time to take a stance instead of being against whatever a westie says... 😛

Jim

Why are you asking me? You have stated that I have said something else. Just the other day. It shouldn't be too hard to find..........

The PID was Oct 2005. Nic used 2007. We have already discussed that, and you said it didn't matter mathematically and instead of showing that, you just insulted me. Remember?

I think they should both matter. You have to consider some earlier date, because there has to be a starting point. It's been thrown around here "what you brought to the merger". That would be May 19, 2005. But, whatever date, yes you have to consider a starting point and where people are. Then I think you should look at how guys would progress over their careers with the fleet they "brought" to the merger, no orders and plot that progression, with pilot group they had at the merger and just normal retirement age attrition. Then, if you are going to slot, slot the list so that the majority of guys(or say the average aged guy in a class) would hit certain targets on a static list as he moves forward. To just slot at the snapshot date does not take into account the attrition or age related.

Did you see my quotes from a west guy made back in Oct of 2005? He used Pan Am/National and that arbitrator looked at those issues. Here's something I found on that:

"Gill Opinion at 12. The Arbitrator concluded that "there are some 'substantial practical inequities' in unrestricted operation of straight length of service which . . . could not feasibly be cured in workable and readily administrable fashion by special protective provisions." The ratio that the Arbitrator adopted covers a much smaller portion of the list than the National pilots advocated. In rejecting the National pilots' contention that the ratio should extend farther down the list, the Arbitrator explained that the degree of disparity in length of service between Pan Am and National pilots increased farther down the list and thus, extending the ratio as the National pilots sought would, on balance, result in too great a disparity in length of service between Pan Am and National pilots who would be ratioed together at that point in the list. The Arbitrator also noted that even though those National pilots below the ratio portion would not reach their promotion expectancies until long after the Pan Am airmen on the list near them reached theirs, this inequity was offset by the fact that these National pilots were, on average, younger and thus had more time to reach their expectancies."

It's getting late. Shred it and I will answer tomorrow, but yes the date of the merger or PID date has to be considered. I'm tired and getting sloppy.

If I was just against what a westie said, I wouldn't have said what I have about DOH.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So you can't answer that simple question without equivocating...got it.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

So you can't answer that simple question without equivocating...got it.

Jim

Well, at least you got an answer. You gave me two choices: "is where everyone was on the PID all that matters? Or do you believe that where everyone is today is all that matters?" Neither match my POV. You said it was my chance to clearly state my position, then when I try to, you just run your mouth. I just didn't give you the answer that backs up your unsubstantiated claim.

You have yet to answer me about how much time you have spent talking to the candidates and which one you will vote for.

Good night Jim. Sleep tight over there.

 

[cactusboy53]

I have to correct myself. In the video I was watching Eric did say the founders of USAPA, I apologize.

The % change is from the updated Nic list that one of your guys put out.

I know all about the other contracts and if WE had not gone down this road we might have been working on contract #2, but WE didn't.

Well that road traveled in April 2008 is behind us. What we have in front of us is a multi-forked road for leadership of this union. Every single candidate has truly stellar education, background & various levels of union experience. I think that we can also agree that save for the Section 22, we all want an improved contract and wage akin to those airlines that we should be compaired with.

The Litmus test this next week: Is this pilot group collectively going to vote in a leadership that is interested in getting that contract NOW or are they going to choose to go down the same road (or one quite parallel to the same road)? Lurkers: Get informed. Read all legal documents, voting communications & blogs, and watch videos. Who are the candidates that can lead you to a improved contract sooner, rather than later (delay, delay, delay)??

CB

 

[high*flyer]

.... Who are the candidates that can lead you to a improved contract sooner, rather than later (delay, delay, delay)??...
CB

Ferguson/Koontz to unite the pilot group, and provide an improved contract sooner than later? Their "head buried in the sand" approach is to totally disregard the concerns of the East, and shove the NIC down the pilots throat at all cost. We've seen how effective that has been...

 

[Freighterguynow]

Just followed the link to the Ferguson/Knootz campaign video: really, is this the best the west has to offer, they look like Penn & Teller in cheap suits. Can't wait to see more, after I stop laughing...

You'd think people would've stopped giving the Scooter and Kooter act the time of day after 4 YEARS. Blah blah blah 'it's all the angry F/O's' Wow 50% of the USAPA volunteers come from the bottom 50% of the list! Shocking!!!!

Got anything else?

I actually hope the Wet ticket gets elected. Off line jumpseat to CLT- surrounded by 1000 East pilots- shut down by the East BOD voting block at every turn- left seething with anger and fear waiting for the inevitable West realization those two have utterly failed to deliver anything much less the 'industry leading' contract they have promised (because there's nothing left for them to do but amp up the hype at this stage).

All those contributions my my ........

 

[Pi brat]

Well that road traveled in April 2008 is behind us. What we have in front of us is a multi-forked road for leadership of this union. Every single candidate has truly stellar education, background & various levels of union experience. I think that we can also agree that save for the Section 22, we all want an improved contract and wage akin to those airlines that we should be compaired with.

The Litmus test this next week: Is this pilot group collectively going to vote in a leadership that is interested in getting that contract NOW or are they going to choose to go down the same road (or one quite parallel to the same road)? Lurkers: Get informed. Read all legal documents, voting communications & blogs, and watch videos. Who are the candidates that can lead you to a improved contract sooner, rather than later (delay, delay, delay)??

CB

Lurkers: Ask HOW the Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes team is going to speed to a new contract. There are few details in their messages that spell out their plan. They are offering no salve to the wounds that have kept us on this stupid fight for 4 year now. Just "get over it so we can move on". It hasn't worked in 4 years, how will it now? It seems they are saying "you better get on board because if you don't a new merger will leave you in a really, really crappy position instead of the just really crappy position the Nic has you in". I'm not in the bottom part of the seniority list, but I don't think settling for "just really crappy" would sway me.

Here are a few questions you might want to ask. Let me know if you get a good answer:
-You keep saying the "illegal DOH....". Is DOH in the C&BLs illegal, or is it the manner that USAPA is trying to use it illegal? Contrary to the Ferguson/Koontz videos, it is not illegal as of today because Addington was overturned, right? Will a Silver opinion be enough to prevent an east DFR from east disenfranchised pilots that feel they have nothing to lose? The Addington suit was very effective in delay. AOL put a template out there, will a few hundred disenfranchised east pilots form a LLC and go hire, oh maybe Lee Seham to sue USAPA if they don't appeal?
-I know you see no way that Judge Silver will rule in a way that is contrary to the best interests of the west pilots, but you thought the same about the judges in SFO. If you get an unfavorable ruling, will you still stop the legal fight?
-Can the president and vice president alone make the decision to not appeal a Silver ruling? What about the BPR? Won't they have a say?
-In their message about a merger with DL, they speak of the DL/NW method of slotting, not the Nic method, the one they are defending. How come?

We started down the legal road and I'm afraid we will have to keep going until we get a definitive answer.

I will say one thing for Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes team. I think they would be able to form a better relationship with management(IF, they get their way with the Nic) than we have had over the last 4 years, and I think that would be a good thing right now. With a possible merger out there I think our management may now want to work with us. But, if Judge Silver rules in a way they don't like, will they keep fighting the battle instead of looking for new solutions? If they dig THEIR heels in, it won't matter how they play with others.

I think either Gary Hummel or Steve Sevier can work with management and either is a better choice for really moving forward. I like McKee and think he has a role in our union, just not a president.

 

[fifidriver]

Just followed the link to the Ferguson/Knootz campaign video: really, is this the best the west has to offer, they look like Penn & Teller in cheap suits. Can't wait to see more, after I stop laughing...
How's that laugh going as you peruse your paycheck stub from the 15th.... ?

 

[fifidriver]

Yet the birth of USAPA is just exactly that. While you personally may have voted to keep ALPA, your pilot group alone is collectively responsible for the change to USAPA. USAPA's land grab at DOH at any and all costs is quite literally taking it from the only other entity in this equation.

Rather than accepting the results of final & binding arbitration and seeking remedy via a new and improved contract, Steve Bradford & the Down by the River gang foolishly chose to believe all the claims maid by chosen counsel.

This is NOT about Eric making a 12% (would you mind showing your math please). It is about deciding to follow proven inteligence & leadership that wants to deliver a much better contract sooner rather than later. The only other choice(s) is/are to remain with the status quo. Tough pill to swallow, but not that tough of a decision for many. The fact is that the seniority issue was decided nearly 5 years ago. Judge Silver will put the finishing touches on this event in the next few weeks (but wait! That means that USAPA will APPEAL - what a surprise!). USAPA (in it's current evolution) has bought only delay at tremendous personal cost to you and I.

I am sorry for the career loss that you have experienced. My career was just fine prior to May 2005. I/we will not simply lay down and negotiate away from an already agreed upon process and conclusion. We each have a vote. If Ferguson or any of the other candidates win: then the majority will have spoken.

You do know that the FA's are voting on a new TA, right? Did you know the rampers are negotiating a SECOND post merger contract? All this time fritters away and we keep watching the money FLY out the window. Wouldn't be nice to be in our SECOND post-merger contract. Heck, even the new DELTA pilots are doing that! What a shame!

But thank you for keeping the company solvent.

 

[USA320Pilot]

I believe the article below is a well-written and places the pilot's position in a merger into clear perspective. Could USAPA and their supporters have the pilots lose again due to the law of unintended consequences? Every pilot should think about the information below and how USAPA's approach could have another UEL initiated pilot punishing event imposed on them again.

What will the next merger look like?: February 14, 2012

Dear US Airways Pilots,

As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.

There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the US Airways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.

The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.

Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to US Airways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with US Airways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.

However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.

According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.

Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.

In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.

None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.

Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz

 

[high*flyer]

Penn and Teller would like to direct your attention away from the elephant in the room while they pull a handkerchief out of their sleeve. Their NIC at all cost has been heard before and rejected....

Dear US Airways Pilots,

As the various merger rumors grow stronger, and the current USAPA leadership prefers to continue its pursuit of the ever more elusive DOH list through the courts, rather than concentrate on getting a contract, it would behoove us to see what a future merger might look like, especially if we merge while still under our current contracts.

There are only three likely merger possibilities: American, Delta and, to a lesser degree, United. USAPA’s merger policy requires the union to pursue a DOH-based integration but the other pilot groups are not bound by this policy. A merger with Delta or United would mean a return to ALPA, which would be required to accept the Nicolau while the APA’s merger policy calls for a “staple” of the other pilot group. Both of these policies are incompatible with USAPA’s DOH merger policy so the matter would go to Binding Arbitration as per the McCaskill/Bond act. Of course, we don’t have to remind anybody what happened the last time the US Airways pilots went to Arbitration unwilling to move off DOH.

The last three Pilot Seniority List Arbitrations in recent history have favored slotted integrations based on aircraft size, with minimal fences and adjustments for employment status and career expectations while the negotiated seniority list integration between Southwest and Airtran (where similar size a/c were involved) relied heavily on hourly wage rates and projected career earnings.

Let’s look at Delta, which has 167 widebodies and 192 B757s compared to US Airways 16 and 34 respectively. Replicating the arbitrated integration method used in the Delta/Northwest merger by Arbitrator Bloch (who used a method almost identical to the one used by George Nicolau), this would result in about 476 DAL 747/777 Captain positions on top of the list, followed by a 7:1 integration of 896 DAL A330/76-300/400 Captain positions and 128 LCC A330 positions and a 6.3:1 integration of DALs 1316 757/767-300 Captain positions with US Airways’ 209 positions. Under this method, of the first 3025 positions, 2688 would go to Delta and only 337 (11.1%) to LCC pilots.

However, this is where things could get sticky. Delta Widebody FOs have a higher hourly wage than LCC Group II and West Captains. ($154/hr for 74/77 FOs and $146/hr for A330/76-400 FOs), The Delta merger committee can be sure to argue that all their 757/767 Captains should go ahead of the USAirways Captains, while the approximately 1,000 DAL widebody FOs should be slotted in with the 209 East Group II / West Captains in order to prevent a “windfall” for the LCC pilots. Obviously, it remains to be seen if an Arbitrator would agree with that line of reasoning, but should he/she decide to take wages and expected career earnings into consideration, it could lead to Group 1 Captains slotted in with Delta 757 FOs ($129/hr) while all USAirways FOs could end up below 5th year Delta narrowbody FOs ($111//hr for a 5th year B737 FO). That is how ridiculously underpaid this pilot group is, and the gap grows larger every day.

According to Mike Cleary’s statement at the last PHL Domicile Meeting, a merger with American is “a question of when, not if”. We’ll see. But……American’s fleet composition resembles that of Delta (120 Widebodies, 124 B-757s), and even after the bankruptcy wage cut recently proposed by AA management, their pay will still be significantly higher than ours. A slotted integration adjusted for pay rates would greatly benefit the American pilots, in the same way it would benefit the Delta pilots, even though under USAPA’s DOH merger policy close to 2000 Furloughed AA pilots would be put ahead of, or slotted in with, currently employed LCC pilots hired between 1999 and 2004.

Clearly, facing another merger while working under our current bankruptcy/ATSB limited contracts, will be a recipe for disaster for all the USAirways pilots. The importance of merging with a recent contract containing at least industry standard wages was illustrated by the Airtran pilots voting in a new contract just prior to entering SLI negotiations with Southwest, which greatly improved their bargaining positions because of increased career earnings projections.

In order to maximize our bargaining position in a possible merger, and help ensure a bright future for all USAirways pilots, it is essential that we move forward NOW, not “when the courts decide”, several years from now. Closing your eyes to the challenges facing us in the very near future, or hoping for “fragmentation” will ultimately doom every pilot on the property.

None of the other candidates have a plan for dealing with these challenges now, so the choice is simple. Vote Ferguson/Koontz/Holmes and protect your family’s future.

Eric Ferguson
Jeff Koontz
[/quote]

 

[Res Judicata]

Penn and Teller would like to direct your attention away from the elephant in the room while they pull a handkerchief out of their sleeve. Their NIC at all cost has been heard before and rejected....

How can you say that when you've never even gotten into the ballpark of being allowed to vote on a Nic. Inclusive contract? Nothing has been rejected...ever. Not officially anyway. Vote McKee to keep flushing hundreds of millions of dollars a year away. Vote McKee if you want APA to use you as a suppository. MCKEE GOT YOU THE INJUNCTION, MCKEE GOT YOU PARKED BY THE NMB. MCKEE AND HIS CAMP HAVE ZERO WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH MANAGEMENT. Vote Hummell if you want the illusion that the union will be "functional". It won't. The only way to move fwd. is to finally accept the UNCONTESTED REALITY of the situation and that is that the Nic. is fair, equitable, final and binding. Everybody gets it except for the dwindling AFO's. Ferguson/Koontz are trying to protect you from yourself....a completely lost cause for some.