US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

If you click on like or dislike then click on the button it shows you results of the votes. I guess fodase can't grasp that the results can change if it is still open. When I voted dislike it come up that 66% or so had voted that way.

Jeez, you are even dumber than I thought. That was the point I was making, the poll changes every time someone votes.

 

[Pi brat]

Jeez, you are even dumber than I thought. That was the point I was making, the poll changes every time someone votes.

Silly me, how could I have possibly not got the above out of this: "like usual u are wrong, it's the other way around."

You are one of the last people on this board that needs to be calling someone dumb.

 

[cleardirect]

usa320 wrote:
I believe USAPAWATCH is right when they said, "What is the old saying on the definition of insanity?We realize that accepting the Nic is no easy pill to swallow. In fact it is beyond repugnant for many of us. But what is harder to swallow is the thought that our friends and families will continue to suffer as we work under a miserable contract to the day we are forced to retire.The money we're forfeiting, the vacation memories that will never happen, and the decline of our general health can never be recouped.If you've already voted for names from the past, it's not to late to make a change. Sit down with your families this evening or make a phone call from the road and discuss your vote with those whom you love the most. They will understand and support you like no one else can."

.... And while you are speaking with your family make them aware that the career expectations you had will never be realized, try and explain why that the block you were hoping to get, the captain upgrade or the move to bigger equipment will never happen.

Hoping to get a block or an upgrade. So we hear from the classic junior furloughed angry F/O. If you were to old or junior to hold it separate ops you should not hold it because of the merger.

Does your family cares about the airplane you fly or the paycheck you bring home?

Do you also drive a Corvette?

 

[USA320Pilot]

usa320 wrote:
I believe USAPAWATCH is right when they said, "What is the old saying on the definition of insanity?We realize that accepting the Nic is no easy pill to swallow. In fact it is beyond repugnant for many of us. But what is harder to swallow is the thought that our friends and families will continue to suffer as we work under a miserable contract to the day we are forced to retire.The money we're forfeiting, the vacation memories that will never happen, and the decline of our general health can never be recouped.If you've already voted for names from the past, it's not to late to make a change. Sit down with your families this evening or make a phone call from the road and discuss your vote with those whom you love the most. They will understand and support you like no one else can."

.... And while you are speaking with your family make them aware that the career expectations you had will never be realized, try and explain why that the block you were hoping to get, the captain upgrade or the move to bigger equipment will never happen.

High flyer,

I believe final and binding is final and binding, it's wrong to break a promise, and I agree with the company that LOA 96, the Transition Agreement, Section 4 (1) requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented.

Can you explain to me when it's o.k. to break a promise or violate a contract?

USA320Pilot

 

[BoeingBoy]

Here are the numbers for the guy that was the bottom guy the day the merger was announced:
The day of the merger 100% of the east stand alone list
Today 79% of the east stand alone list.
If the Nic were in place, 86%.

Something sounds fishy with that math. How did the bottom guy on the east list as of the PID (who had 100% -1 of easties above him) jump ahead of 21% of easties who are now below him?

I once asked you about the assumptions that went into that spreadsheet and never got an answer. GIGO

Jim

PS - still talking about the present as though it's all that matters too...

 

[Phoenix]

High flyer,

I believe final and binding is final and binding, it's wrong to break a promise, and I agree with the company that LOA 96, the Transition Agreement, Section 4 (1) requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented.

Can you explain to me when it's o.k. to break a promise or violate a contract?

USA320Pilot

So then, you think that the ALPA observed abortion should be implemented, even in contradiction to the contractual terms that ALPA and the company provided for its veto, and in contradiction to the will of the pilots.

When do you think it is acceptable to run for president promising to reject the constitution that is the basis for the office you seek?

 

[Pi brat]

Something sounds fishy with that math. How did the bottom guy on the east list as of the PID (who had 100% -1 of easties above him) jump ahead of 21% of easties who are now below him?

I once asked you about the assumptions that went into that spreadsheet and never got an answer. GIGO

Jim

PS - still talking about the present as though it's all that matters too...

Uh Jimbo, I didn't come up the the cleaned up Nic list, a westie did. You will need to get in touch with him to find out. That aside, it seems pretty simple, he is ahead of the easties that got recalled and hired since 2005, right? That would be the effect of attrition and "growth" right?

One more time, have you talked to the candidates? Who are you voting for?

 

[Pi brat]

High flyer,

I believe final and binding is final and binding, it's wrong to break a promise, and I agree with the company that LOA 96, the Transition Agreement, Section 4 (1) requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented.

Can you explain to me when it's o.k. to break a promise or violate a contract?

USA320Pilot

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Didn't you at one time support USAPA? And from day one weren't the founders of USAPA clear about what they thought was "right and fair"?

 

[Metroyet]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Didn't you at one time support USAPA? And from day one weren't the founders of USAPA clear about what they thought was "right and fair"?

Thank you for saving me the post. Nobody has forgotten what CM advocated for in the early days.

 

[cleardirect]

You must be related to Jim, or at least suffering from the same affliction. Here's what you said:

"Don't you east guys get it? You'll be bidding the exact same relative seniority that you would have without the merger. That 17 year guy at the bottom of you list is still at the bottom of the list."

Is......not was. You'll.....future tense.

Here are the numbers for the guy that was the bottom guy the day the merger was announced:
The day of the merger 100% of the east stand alone list
Today 79% of the east stand alone list.
If the Nic were in place, 86%.

We all know you are wrong, accept it yourself.

How are you doing your math?

Dean Colello was 3177 out of 4951. That makes him depending on how you figure either 100% or 64% of the total list. You must be talking about the bottom active guy. Convenient how you ignore the furloughed guys in your calculations.

Today Colello is 2569 out of 3296. Making him 78%. So did he go from 100% to 78% gaining 22% stand alone or did he go from 64% to 78% losing 14%?

On the Nicolau list he went from 100% to 100% Stayed the same. 4 years later he went from 64% to 85% Or if you figure it the other way he went from stand alone 78% to 85% only a 7% difference in 4 years.

Varini the true bottom guy went from 4951 out of 4951 to 3269/3296. Making him 99% of the seniority list after 4 years stand alone.

 

[USA320Pilot]

So then, you think that the ALPA observed abortion should be implemented, even in contradiction to the contractual terms that ALPA and the company provided for its veto, and in contradiction to the will of the pilots.

When do you think it is acceptable to run for president promising to reject the constitution that is the basis for the office you seek?

Pi,

Pi asked: "You think that the ALPA observed abortion should be implemented."

USA320 answers: From day one I have stated I believe the Nicolau Award is an abomination, which is why I joined the ACPC to lobby east pilots to support the MEC's lawsuit to have the SLI thrown out in D.C. Superior Court or mitigated by a consensual agreement between the two MECs. However, after reading Mike Abram's letter I knew if the pilot group elected USAPA the Nicolau Award would be etched in stone because of USAPA's legal obligation to honor every aspect of both pilot group's contracts. Therefore, I believe Judge Silver will order US Airways and the Airline Parties to implement the Nicolau Award.

Pi asked: "even in contradiction to the contractual terms that ALPA and the company provided for its veto."

USA320 comments: I'm not sure what you're asking.

Pi asked: "in contradiction to the will of the pilots."

USA320 answers: That's an opinion, not a fact. In my opinion, I believe the majority of the pilots (West pilots, East captains, and 3rd listers) would vote for a new contract that contains the Nicolau Award after watching four years of USAPA failures and corruption.

Pi asked: "When do you think it is acceptable to run for president promising to reject the constitution that is the basis for the office you seek?"

USA320 answers: In every level of politics candidates run on a platform, which could change a law or the constitution. For example, abortion and gay marriage are two emotional issues where candidates run for office based on their belief. USAPA was created to break a promise, violate the contract, and for the majority to impose their will on the minority. Tomorrow is the deadline for replies to be filed in the DJ lawsuit case. Then Judge Silver will rule and I believe at that point US Airways will take the position it must implement the Nicolau Award per the court's decision.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That aside, it seems pretty simple, he is ahead of the easties that got recalled and hired since 2005, right? That would be the effect of attrition and "growth" right?

Then say what you mean then. The bottom east pilot on the PID was a CEL pilot who got on the list by virtue of going to MDA. New hires since the merger are the "third listers" - neither east nor west. They will be junior to anyone on the east and west list no matter whether Nic or DOH end up being used. You did say the bottom pilot on the east list, after all.

If you mean the bottom active east pilot as of the PID (which isn't what you said), he would have been about 67% on the east list at PID since all the furloughed and former CEL pilots (about 1/3 the east list) would have been below him at the PID. So by your wording, that guy has dropped by about 12% of the east list.

Of course, you also assume that the east "standalone" list would have been exactly what it is now without the merger. Good luck with that fantasy. Try the east list being history long before now as a "standalone" company.

What you need to do - if you want accurate info - is take a guy on the east list at the PID and figure out where he was among active or total east pilots. Do the same for the same guy today. Forget new hires - they'll be below him no matter how the list is integrated. Or if you include them, include them for both east and west - they'll also be below the west pilots no matter how the lists are integrated. Do that and then we can talk about how much difference the Nic makes. Otherwise, you're only illustrating how many jobs the east's stalling has cost the west...and potentially how much in damages...

Good work mixing apples with oranges to make some slanted point, however...I'm sure that the other lemmings just nod their heads in agreement...

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

Marked. And mark mine: Elect Ferguson and slate and we will be in the same or worse shape. The difference between you and me is that I hope I'm wrong, if they are elected I won't try to make my vision come true and if I'm wrong I will admit it.

The pilots of US Airways tried it "your way" when they put Cleary in place. A more complete Icon of Failure you won't find. The East pilots have failed so miserably at every single opportunity, if I were an East pilot I would start to think that whatever my natural response to something would be, I'd need to do the exact opposite. I don't recall any Eastie admitting to be wrong about anything. Even in the face of overwhelming proof staring you in the face so I'm not holding my breath. Would you vote for Hummel if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that there won't be a contract for another 3 + years?

Because I'm here to tell you that beyond a shadow of a doubt, that is going to be the case. Consider yourself advised.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Pi,

Pi asked: "You think that the ALPA observed abortion should be implemented."

USA320 answers: From day one I have stated I believe the Nicolau Award is an abomination, which is why I joined the ACPC to lobby east pilots to support the MEC's lawsuit to have the SLI thrown out in D.C. Superior Court or mitigated by a consensual agreement between the two MECs. However, after reading Mike Abram's letter I knew if the pilot group elected USAPA the Nicolau Award would be etched in stone because of USAPA's legal obligation to honor every aspect of both pilot group's contracts. Therefore, I believe Judge Silver will order US Airways and the Airline Parties to implement the Nicolau Award.

Pi asked: "even in contradiction to the contractual terms that ALPA and the company provided for its veto."

USA320 comments: I'm not sure what you're asking.

Pi asked: "in contradiction to the will of the pilots."

USA320 answers: That's an opinion, not a fact. In my opinion, I believe the majority of the pilots (West pilots, East captains, and 3rd listers) would vote for a new contract that contains the Nicolau Award after watching four years of USAPA failures and corruption.

Pi asked: "When do you think it is acceptable to run for president promising to reject the constitution that is the basis for the office you seek?"

USA320 answers: In every level of politics candidates run on a platform, which could change a law or the constitution. For example, abortion and gay marriage are two emotional issues where candidates run for office based on their belief. USAPA was created to break a promise, violate the contract, and for the majority to impose their will on the minority. Tomorrow is the deadline for replies to be filed in the DJ lawsuit case. Then Judge Silver will rule and I believe at that point US Airways will take the position it must implement the Nicolau Award per the court's decision.

USA320Pilot

You often cite the Transition Agreement. How do you interpret Section XII of the TA? It certainly reads like an escape clause to me.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

Pi asked: "You think that the ALPA observed abortion should be implemented."

USA320 answers: From day one I have stated I believe the Nicolau Award is an abomination, which is why I joined the ACPC to lobby east pilots to support the MEC's lawsuit to have the SLI thrown out in D.C. Superior Court or mitigated by a consensual agreement between the two MECs. However, after reading Mike Abram's letter I knew if the pilot group elected USAPA the Nicolau Award would be etched in stone because of USAPA's legal obligation to honor every aspect of both pilot group's contracts. Therefore, I believe Judge Silver will order US Airways and the Airline Parties to implement the Nicolau Award.

Pi asked: "even in contradiction to the contractual terms that ALPA and the company provided for its veto."

USA320 comments: I'm not sure what you're asking.

Pi asked: "in contradiction to the will of the pilots."

USA320 answers: That's an opinion, not a fact. In my opinion, I believe the majority of the pilots (West pilots, East captains, and 3rd listers) would vote for a new contract that contains the Nicolau Award after watching four years of USAPA failures and corruption.

Pi asked: "When do you think it is acceptable to run for president promising to reject the constitution that is the basis for the office you seek?"

USA320 answers: In every level of politics candidates run on a platform, which could change a law or the constitution. For example, abortion and gay marriage are two emotional issues where candidates run for office based on their belief. USAPA was created to break a promise, violate the contract, and for the majority to impose their will on the minority. Tomorrow is the deadline for replies to be filed in the DJ lawsuit case. Then Judge Silver will rule and I believe at that point US Airways will take the position it must implement the Nicolau Award per the court's decision.

You are getting your guys mixed up. That wasn't me asking that, I asked if you supported USAPA, back when you were giving ethics lessons. Let's look at a post from 2007 from a USA320, and I'm assuming you are the same one:

"USA320Pilot
Posted 13 September 2007 - 12:27 AM

Veteran
PipPipPipPipPip

Group: Registered Member
Posts: 7,326
Joined: 18-May 03

Junebug & AWA320,

It is my understanding you are in for some big surprises in the not-to-distant future and John Prater just told a colleague of mine that his goal is to get both sides to the table and if they didnt work together to "let them stew in their juices".

Furthermore, USAPA now has about 2,400 cards. On September 17 the next furlough recall class will commence and USAPA will know from sources at the CLT Training Center exactly who will return to the company and who will not. The last furlough recall class will be held in a couple of weeks and then USAPA will know exactly which representational cards are valid and which ones would be voided.

When the number of cards is compared to the combined seniority list (with an exact/certified US Airways - AWA pilot list obtained from George Nicolau's Award), USAPA will know exactly how many cards are necessary to to have the NMB order an election. Therefore, the Company's recall timing is perfect and welcome news to USAPA''s Officer's.

By the way, if you would like to print an authoirization card click here.

By the way, I'm sure you're wondering if electing a new bargaining agent enhance our ability to redress the inequities of the Nicolau award?

Well, I understand the Nicolau Award is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

By the way, did you see this letter?

I know, I know, you're going to threaten a DFR lawsuit and I say go ahead. As you know Lee Seham indicated believes your new/pending union, USAPA, has a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

Finally, I understand USAP nees 50% +1 of the total pilot voting population to force an election. The NMB will determine the pool of eligible pilot-voters from which this number is derived. This number includes, all active pilots East and West, furloughed pilots not working for another airline, pilots on medical leave and LOA or military leave. The MDA pilots and J4J pilots may or may not be included, that will be determined by the NMB - therefore it is critical that MDA and J4J pilots submit Authorization Cards.

Regards,

USA320Pilot"

So what happened to your ethics meter between then and now. And please, please share with us who you are voting for.

Regards,
pi brat