US Pilots Labor Discussion

[AWE Dog]

They were forced is the key word. You make it sound like it was a choice. It was economic reality that those jobs were not productive and had to be cut. They have the least invested in the airline but seem to think they are most entitled because of the great hardship in being forced by economics out of a non-viable job. All of the furloughs would have been much better off to have cut their losses and move on to companies who did have economically viable jobs for them. I am sure you know many who did this and are in a much better place than they would be had they stayed.

All that said I do wish Nic would have fenced off a portion of the east hulls to try and protect some east attrition for them.

Huh? A East furloughed pilot has the least invested in the airline with 14+ years service? Your man Dave O'dell really had alot invested, what? a couple weeks.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So the only other "opinion" that you guys can find to agree with you is the lawyer that filed the law suit against the west.

Got anyone without a financial interest in this?

Actually, no. We agree with Mr. Seham and his legal partners, the Ninth, the US Supreme Court (remember, when they said that a union could negotiate for the benefit of ALL of its members?) and even Judge Wake in his dismissal order.

Prechilil wanted a link, I gave her one.

 

[FL430]

Care to take a guess at who was second in line for ATSB loans?

I have also heard Parker say that without this merger US Airways would have liquidated. The reason we could not do a contract before seniority is US Airways would not have lasted that long. There was no probably modifier in Parker's statement about US Airways going away.

Only going to believe what you want to believe?

Boy oh boy are you on a hair trigger! I was responding to the post by cactusboy - read it. I was challenging the rosy picture he was painting of AWE at the time period. His statements were questionable at best.

And I already know the answer to both of your questions to me, did you see me post anything worthy of you becoming challenging to me?

 

[prechilill]

Here's a link to a very experienced legal opinion:

Expert legal opinion

These guys actually function as attorneys for ALPA.

And before you start the "it's only THEIR opinion" crap, remember that until a case is heard by the US Supreme Court, it's ONLY someone's opinion.

Ummm, your old attorney's opinion doesn't count, I was thinking more in terms of a COURT order. You know, the decisions from people that matter (i.e. a judge), not opinions from people who don't matter (i.e. an attorney).

 

[FL430]

Ummm, your old attorney's opinion doesn't count, I was thinking more in terms of a COURT order. You know, the decisions from people that matter (i.e. a judge), not opinions from people who don't matter (i.e. an attorney).

How about the opinions of 9th circuit federal judges Tashima, Bybee, and Graber when they say that it is possible that USAPA may abandon the Nic?

But then again they mention some thorny issue also - so where is your goat video buddy? I hear goats eat thorns.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Ummm, your old attorney's opinion doesn't count, I was thinking more in terms of a COURT order. You know, the decisions from people that matter (i.e. a judge), not opinions from people who don't matter (i.e. an attorney).

OK here are the decisions of the "people that matter"

• ALPA immediately set up the Rice committee and Wye river to change the terms of the seniority decision.
• USAPA immediately changed the proposed integrated seniority list to DOH with C&R's.
• The West pilots have lost two system board grievances claiming a contractual right to try to force the company to use the Nic award for furlough and as a company bargaining position in the next contract.
• The Addington DFR claim and damages claims were both dismissed by the 9th circuit.
• The En Banc appeal to the 9th circuit was rejected.
• The Addington appeal of the 9th circuit's decision back to Judge Wake was dismissed. (surprise)
• The appeal to the Supreme court has even the AOL attorneys telling the West pilots to expect it to fail
• The Addington appeal to Judge Silver is now subject to a rule 11 frivolous filing challenge.
• Any new DFR lawsuit which itself would face impossible odds has to wait until after a DOH seniority list is ratified into a new contract.

The West has the burden of proof and claims the Nic award is binding but has failed in every attempt to prove it.

underpants

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Ummm, your old attorney's opinion doesn't count, I was thinking more in terms of a COURT order. You know, the decisions from people that matter (i.e. a judge), not opinions from people who don't matter (i.e. an attorney).

Along with the great sysnopsis by Captain Underpants, log onto the USAPA site, go to the legal library and read the 3 articles entitled "What the Cases Really Say". That will give you all the background, cases, decisions and conclusions used.

 

[prechilill]

Ok, three posts of non-answers. Can any of you cite a legal reference saying the Nicolau is dead? All you have given me is a subjective opinion from a law firm (who used to be employed by the east), a misguided recap of event since USAPA's ill- fated inception and a third referencing USAPA's interpretation of case law.

You said that the Nicolau is dead. Fine. Show me the legal reference. I can find a bunch of stuff saying you guys have reached a dead end (and a lot of your friends out east are seeing this now), but show me a court order saying the Nicolau is dead.

(Hint: you can't)

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Ok, three posts of non-answers. Can any of you cite a legal reference saying the Nicolau is dead? All you have given me is a subjective opinion from a law firm (who used to be employed by the east), a misguided recap of event since USAPA's ill- fated inception and a third referencing USAPA's interpretation of case law.

You said that the Nicolau is dead. Fine. Show me the legal reference. I can find a bunch of stuff saying you guys have reached a dead end (and a lot of your friends out east are seeing this now), but show me a court order saying the Nicolau is dead.

(Hint: you can't)

Okay then. You show US where the Nic is still alive. (hint: you can't). Quoting cases that have been dismissed doesn't count.

Since it's gonna take a RATIFIED contract before you can refile a DFR, it's gonna be a while. NO ratified contract will EVER include the Nic. You can take that to the bank.

 

[cactusboy53]

[/u]

AWA was also the first airline in line for the ATSB bailouts.

Would Doug Parker or Scott Kirby be considered "industry experts"? I ask because i have heard them both say that absent the merger AWA would have declared bankruptcy and probably not survived.

What say you?

So getting in line for government loans makes AWA bad? We got the loans. We used the money and we began to pay back the money with the PROFITS that we were then making. AWA holdings then ACQUIRED the former US Air and took on that debt, and began paying that debt down.

I do not consider Parker or Kirby industry experts. It is funny that you choose to use Parker & Kirby's statements when it suits you. I was referring to experts such as R. W. Mann (to name just one).

To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So getting in line for government loans makes AWA bad? We got the loans. We used the money and we began to pay back the money with the PROFITS that we were then making. AWA holdings then ACQUIRED the former US Air and took on that debt, and began paying that debt down.

I do not consider Parker or Kirby industry experts. It is funny that you choose to use Parker & Kirby's statements when it suits you. I was referring to experts such as R. W. Mann (to name just one).

To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Fact are great. So tell you west buds to stop makiing stuff up.

 

[AWA320]

Actually, no. We agree with Mr. Seham and his legal partners, the Ninth, the US Supreme Court (remember, when they said that a union could negotiate for the benefit of ALL of its members?) and even Judge Wake in his dismissal order.

Prechilil wanted a link, I gave her one.

Oh good finally you agree with the 9th circuit good. Then we will have no more out of you that usapa is free to negotiate section 22 with THE PAIN OF A RIPE SUIT should you decide to go against their advice. Cant have it both ways. Opps I just made that up 🙄

AWA320

 

[cleardirect]

Okay then. You show US where the Nic is still alive. (hint: you can't). Quoting cases that have been dismissed doesn't count.

Since it's gonna take a RATIFIED contract before you can refile a DFR, it's gonna be a while. NO ratified contract will EVER include the Nic. You can take that to the bank.

Kind of shot your argument there oldie. If as you say the Nicolau is dead how can the west file a law suit?

Next. The Nicolau is still alive. Company law suit. If the company thought the Nicolau was dead and gone how or why would they file a law suit. So I guess there are other people that think it is still alive.

Would you mind posting case law that explains what happens to arbitrations? They don't just disappear.

 

[crazystnic]

And a furloughed pilot is never going to go ahead of 66% of our captains and 80% of our entire list.

I don't care how many years the furloughed guy had. FURLOUGHED =NO JOB!!!!

During the Trump merger AAA proposed a W-2 method of integration. How did that respect seniority? Where was the indignation then?

*****************************
clear you are a loud mouth in my opinion, a spoiled brat...
I was part of the Trump merger... it wasnt' perfect, but it had both sides realizing that it wasn't perfect..
but it wasn't the AWA/ US disaster...

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oh good finally you agree with the 9th circuit good. Then we will have no more out of you that usapa is free to negotiate section 22 with THE PAIN OF A RIPE SUIT should you decide to go against their advice. Cant have it both ways. Opps I just made that up 🙄

AWA320

Yes, you did. They actually said that USAPA was at least as free to abandon the Nic as ALPA, and we know that ALPA didn't feel bound by it (i.e. Rice comminsion, Wye River, etc). AND that you can't file another DFR until there is a RATIFIED contract.

Please stop distorting the facts.