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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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The furloughed pilots and their families were forced to give up more than anyone to save the airline. They are a large part of the reason you and I have a job today. Using them for stepping stones to advance one's seniority without paying one's dues is wrong. We all would like a free ride. Call it....career expectations. It could happen to you!

They were forced is the key word. You make it sound like it was a choice. It was economic reality that those jobs were not productive and had to be cut. They have the least invested in the airline but seem to think they are most entitled because of the great hardship in being forced by economics out of a non-viable job. All of the furloughs would have been much better off to have cut their losses and move on to companies who did have economically viable jobs for them. I am sure you know many who did this and are in a much better place than they would be had they stayed.

All that said I do wish Nic would have fenced off a portion of the east hulls to try and protect some east attrition for them.
 
He like oldie but goodie runs and has to lie to himself in order to keep posting but its those damn facts that keep getting in the way. They wish the facts would just leave and not bother them anymore so that the lies make sense to them 🙄

AWA320
You mean the fake stuff that you made up? If you can prove them, go ahead. Since you can't, you keep attacking me.

Go ahead, where's your proof? I know, you haven't got any. Keep making up stories, just like the rest of the westies.
 
You mean the fake stuff that you made up? If you can prove them, go ahead. Since you can't, you keep attacking me.

Go ahead, where's your proof? I know, you haven't got any. Keep making up stories, just like the rest of the westies.

Yup you got me, I made it all up created the name of the GE Capital officer then I worte the story and forced the NEW YORK TIMES to publish it. I am that damn good. I bet you can hardly wait for my next story where I show how I fooled everyone in the world into thinking that USAir had placed all those pilots on furlough, I even fooled the ones who got furloughed in to believing that they were. :wacko: 🙄

AWA320
 
Bear,

Well OK then how do you explain that the West has lost every challenge claiming the Nic award is binding.
You seem to be moving the goalposts (and in none of your examples, BTW, did any neutral say the Nic award is not valid). I simply said the East is refusing to honor what both sides agreed would be a binding decision.

Or are you saying that all along the East intended to ignore the decision if it was anything less than DOH?
 
Yup you got me, I made it all up created the name of the GE Capital officer then I worte the story and forced the NEW YORK TIMES to publish it. I am that damn good. I bet you can hardly wait for my next story where I show how I fooled everyone in the world into thinking that USAir had placed all those pilots on furlough, I even fooled the ones who got furloughed in to believing that they were. :wacko: 🙄

AWA320
So put the links on here. I suppose you believe everything you read. I sure don't. ESPECIALLY from YOU!

ALL the numbers and quotes are available. You can't use them to back up your claims, SINCE YOU MADE THEM UP.

Just show me a quote or link or video where ANYBODY promised you a contract in a certain period of time. You KEEP making the claim, now prove it.
 
You seem to be moving the goalposts (and in none of your examples, BTW, did any neutral say the Nic award is not valid). I simply said the East is refusing to honor what both sides agreed would be a binding decision.

Or are you saying that all along the East intended to ignore the decision if it was anything less than DOH?
Bear,

After multiple West challenges you can not produce any valid mandated decision or ruling by any court or other authority with jurisdiction declaring or enforcing the Nic award as "binding".

The Nic award is not legally binding. Case closed......

Underpants
 
Bear,

After multiple West challenges you can not produce any valid mandated decision or ruling by any court or other authority with jurisdiction declaring or enforcing the Nic award as "binding".

The Nic award is not legally binding. Case closed......

Underpants
:lol:

Wow, that was simple!

Then why the 500-page threads every week about it?
 
Bear,

After multiple West challenges you can not produce any valid mandated decision or ruling by any court or other authority with jurisdiction declaring or enforcing the Nic award as "binding".

The Nic award is not legally binding. Case closed......

Underpants
People with integrity don't need a court or other authority to tell them to abide by their bargains. You enter into a deal you live up to that deal.

I am reminded of Al Gore and his famous no legal controlling authority BS.

What we have is a signed binding arbitration. What we don't have is anyone with the authority that has said it is not valid.
 
Many of us happen to know lawyers. Like anything in life, some are better than others. I am an aquaintence of one of our ILWU attorneys and neighbor to a federal judge and two of our children are best friends. Since I started paying attention to your mess, my neighbor called the 9th's ruling, along with the motion to reconsider, en banc petition, the rule 60b joke and the motion to transfer. The Ferderal rules provide comments to the rules to aid judges in decisions and he was pretty emphatic about how it would turn out when I gave him some of the details. Granted he is a democrat and has a more liberal orientation but he was dead on. Of course, he would be the first to admit he has been wrong and had decisions overturned but in these instances I was impressed on how closely he called things. I have had less interaction with our union attorney but he shared similar thoughts.

Both of them share your union's opinion that the dicta included in the 9th's decision was meant to inform the parties of what view the court would take with a refiling of the case or a similar case were it to return to them. I am not saying he is going to be right but he certainly has called much of what occurred dead on. I am no lawyer and have never claimed to be like some on here and only relay what I consider to be valid legal opinion. The only opinions I have offered that are my own are on the nature of unions and seniority. I think you all are going to find that the Declaratory Judgement complaint filed by your company will not make it to trial because the 9th has already made clear, the union is free to bargain and there is no way a court can grant some blanket immunity for an unknown complaint without running afoul of the ripeness doctrine.

What you will probably see when the dismissals begin is dicta in those judgements that reiterate much of the 9th's opinion as well as education that any agreement may be modified, your transition agreement is a placeholder agreement until a completed single contract replaces it. The terms and conditions to complete it are between the company and the Collective Bargaining Agent and that your company owes no Duty of Fair Representation, and in large part is indemnified by the Union being the responsible party. Your own company has been emphatic the seniority is the unions deal and as long as it meets the conditions of the company to not create significant training costs, it meets the conditions of your Transition Agreement and they could care less the makeup.
MM!
 
So opines the guy who leaped over those Empire pilots to get his captain slot...

Jim


Thats it Jim, deflect, deflect, deflect . Just like you often accuse east posters of doing.

Instead of flying around with revisions and stickers in your window give the guy an answer to his question.
 
AWA furloughed 179 pilots after 9/11(two waves in October & November 2001). Some were off as little as 4 months. The longest out was about a year or so. I think everyone returned by the first of 2003. AWA was the first major airline to have all of its furloughed employees return after 9/11.

We started growing, getting aircraft, hiring and upgrading. We hired some great pilots that were furloughed from TWA/AA, US Air, United, etc (many of which remain here). AWA pilots negotiated the first post-9/11 contract that was an improvement over our previous contract with some better working conditions. By the first part of 2005 the pilots upgrading were on property around 6.5 years or so. AWA was making money and according to industry experts were not anywhere near another bankruptcy.


AWA was also the first airline in line for the ATSB bailouts.

Would Doug Parker or Scott Kirby be considered "industry experts"? I ask because i have heard them both say that absent the merger AWA would have declared bankruptcy and probably not survived.

What say you?
 
Here's a link to a very experienced legal opinion:

Expert legal opinion

These guys actually function as attorneys for ALPA.

And before you start the "it's only THEIR opinion" crap, remember that until a case is heard by the US Supreme Court, it's ONLY someone's opinion.
So the only other "opinion" that you guys can find to agree with you is the lawyer that filed the law suit against the west.

Got anyone without a financial interest in this?
 
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AWA was also the first airline in line for the ATSB bailouts.

Would Doug Parker or Scott Kirby be considered "industry experts"? I ask because i have heard them both say that absent the merger AWA would have declared bankruptcy and probably not survived.

What say you?
Care to take a guess at who was second in line for ATSB loans?

I have also heard Parker say that without this merger US Airways would have liquidated. The reason we could not do a contract before seniority is US Airways would not have lasted that long. There was no probably modifier in Parker's statement about US Airways going away.

Only going to believe what you want to believe?
 
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