US Pilots Labor Discussion

[USA320Pilot]

You are getting your guys mixed up. That wasn't me asking that, I asked if you supported USAPA, back when you were giving ethics lessons. Let's look at a post from 2007 from a USA320, and I'm assuming you are the same one:

"USA320Pilot
Posted 13 September 2007 - 12:27 AM

Veteran
PipPipPipPipPip

Group: Registered Member
Posts: 7,326
Joined: 18-May 03

Junebug & AWA320,

It is my understanding you are in for some big surprises in the not-to-distant future and John Prater just told a colleague of mine that his goal is to get both sides to the table and if they didnt work together to "let them stew in their juices".

Furthermore, USAPA now has about 2,400 cards. On September 17 the next furlough recall class will commence and USAPA will know from sources at the CLT Training Center exactly who will return to the company and who will not. The last furlough recall class will be held in a couple of weeks and then USAPA will know exactly which representational cards are valid and which ones would be voided.

When the number of cards is compared to the combined seniority list (with an exact/certified US Airways - AWA pilot list obtained from George Nicolau's Award), USAPA will know exactly how many cards are necessary to to have the NMB order an election. Therefore, the Company's recall timing is perfect and welcome news to USAPA''s Officer's.

By the way, if you would like to print an authoirization card click here.

By the way, I'm sure you're wondering if electing a new bargaining agent enhance our ability to redress the inequities of the Nicolau award?

Well, I understand the Nicolau Award is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

By the way, did you see this letter?

I know, I know, you're going to threaten a DFR lawsuit and I say go ahead. As you know Lee Seham indicated believes your new/pending union, USAPA, has a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

Finally, I understand USAP nees 50% +1 of the total pilot voting population to force an election. The NMB will determine the pool of eligible pilot-voters from which this number is derived. This number includes, all active pilots East and West, furloughed pilots not working for another airline, pilots on medical leave and LOA or military leave. The MDA pilots and J4J pilots may or may not be included, that will be determined by the NMB - therefore it is critical that MDA and J4J pilots submit Authorization Cards.

Regards,

USA320Pilot"

So what happened to your ethics meter between then and now. And please, please share with us who you are voting for.

Regards,
pi brat

I have said over-and-over again I made a mistake supporting USAPA. But, the UELs never provide all of the information and twist a story to support their argument. Once I read Mike Abram's letter written to every US Airways pilot I knew USAPA was an enormous mistake, which has clearly been identified. I believed Steve Bradford after flying with him for 10 hours back and for the to SFO and he was wrong. Do I believe the Nicolau Award is unfair to east pilots? Yes, but a deal is a deal.

Here's the bottom line:

1. I believe Judge Silver will order USAPA to implement the Nicolau Award.

2. The case is "ripe" and the Ninth Circuit will not hear the case, which will affirm Judge Silver's decision in a a couple of months.

3. The East anti-USAPA pilots, the 3rd listers, and USAPA PHX-based pilots will take control of the union, either during this election or in fairly short-order. At that point the Nicolau Award will be implemented because USAPA has taught us the majority can impose their will on the minority.

Lets not forget that following the release of Nicolau Award II the MEC contracted ALPA Consultant and computer programer Rikk Salamatt to provided an economic and seniority integration analysis. Salamatt produced a report, which the Merger Committee broke down into two parts: confidential and non-confidential sections.

The confidential section was not released to the pilot group because the MEC, the Merger Committee, and Merger General Counsel believed this portion of the report would damage the MEC's case to have the Nicolau Award thrown out in D.C. Superior Court.

The non-confidential portion was used in the MEC's presentation to ALPA's Executive Council.

The non-confidential section indicated any pilot on the property at the time of the merger who could check out had a two-year upgrade delay. Why? Because the AWA pilots were bringing 142 Group II aircraft and above to the merger.

The lowest seniority pilot who had a two-year upgrade delay from 2015-2017 was Jim Ziegler (Joe Monda and Ralph Conrad were too old to check out and their career expectation was a F/O.

The Excel spreadsheet showing Ziegler's two-year upgrade delay can be viewed by clicking here.

However, this data was based on the age 60 mandatory retirement age, which was changed, and added 5 years to upgrades.

Regardless, at the time the Nicolau Award was released Salamtt concluded any pilot not furloughed would have a maximum 2-year upgrade delay with hundreds and hundreds of east pilots sustaining less than a 2-year upgrade delay.

To view an excellent analysis of Salamatt's report and how the Nicolau Award effects east pilots click here.

 

[cleardirect]

Crazy,

Many of them are my friends. Just like some of my friends, and even my daughter, support a different US Presidential candidate, we remain friends.

I have been a F/O much longer than I have been a capt. I was a F/O when the merger took place. If the Nic is the list I expect to become a F/O for the 3rd time.

But, all of that said, you have to remember that it was George Nicolau that did those things, not the west pilots. Although I don't agree with their solution, they didn't start the fire.

You say this is war. I've never been in a war, but I don't think this is one and to say so is a discredit to those dodging real bullets. It is a disagreement. A half a billion dollar disagreement, but still a disagreement.

Explain that statement!
No bump, no flush. If you are a captain you will remain a captain. How are you going to become an F/O again?

 

[cleardirect]

Here is an interesting email sent to a large group of East pilots this evening:

From: USAPA USAPA <defendusapa@gmail.com>
To: xxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: TRAITORS!!


YOU IDIOTS BETTER NOT XXXX THIS UP. IF FERGESON GETS IN, IT'LL BE ON YOUR SHOULDERS!

WE KNOW EACH AND EVERYONE ON THIS LIST AND YOU'LL BE GETTING PHONE CALLS IF THE WEST COMES OUT OF THIS THE WINNER.

Wow! Threats and intimidation. So much for letting ideas carry the day. So much for majority rule. Suppose that only applies when the majority agree with the thugs.

 

[Res Judicata]

You are out to lunch on this one. I told him to start both engines because there were no airplanes in line for 27L in PHL and the airplane had been on the ground for 2 hours. It was the right thing to do and he ignored my command. There is one captain, period. Read your FOM. He was not even aware of the requirement for a 5 min warm up on a multimillion dollar engine. I was, and that is MY responsibility, and no one will take that away from me. The CRM came in because I didn't tell him that he was an idiot in front of a jumpseat rider. I told him to start it, and then when we were on our way to RDU I showed him the relevant section in the POH. Even then he didn't accept his error, he said "When did they put that in there". I said "For as long as we have been single engine taxi".

Whatever douchbag.

 

[Pi brat]

Explain that statement!
No bump, no flush. If you are a captain you will remain a captain. How are you going to become an F/O again?

Have Jim explain the east system of filling vacancies.

 

[Pi brat]

I have said over-and-over again I made a mistake supporting USAPA. But, the UELs never provide all of the information and twist a story to support their argument. Once I read Mike Abram's letter written to every US Airways pilot I knew USAPA was an enormous mistake, which has clearly been identified. I believed Steve Bradford after flying with him for 10 hours back and for the to SFO and he was wrong. Do I believe the Nicolau Award is unfair to east pilots? Yes, but a deal is a deal.

Here's the bottom line:

1. I believe Judge Silver will order USAPA to implement the Nicolau Award.

2. The case is "ripe" and the Ninth Circuit will not hear the case, which will affirm Judge Silver's decision in a a couple of months.

3. The East anti-USAPA pilots, the 3rd listers, and USAPA PHX-based pilots will take control of the union, either during this election or in fairly short-order. At that point the Nicolau Award will be implemented because USAPA has taught us the majority can impose their will on the minority.

Lets not forget that following the release of Nicolau Award II the MEC contracted ALPA Consultant and computer programer Rikk Salamatt to provided an economic and seniority integration analysis. Salamatt produced a report, which the Merger Committee broke down into two parts: confidential and non-confidential sections.

The confidential section was not released to the pilot group because the MEC, the Merger Committee, and Merger General Counsel believed this portion of the report would damage the MEC's case to have the Nicolau Award thrown out in D.C. Superior Court.

The non-confidential portion was used in the MEC's presentation to ALPA's Executive Council.

The non-confidential section indicated any pilot on the property at the time of the merger who could check out had a two-year upgrade delay. Why? Because the AWA pilots were bringing 142 Group II aircraft and above to the merger.

The lowest seniority pilot who had a two-year upgrade delay from 2015-2017 was Jim Ziegler (Joe Monda and Ralph Conrad were too old to check out and their career expectation was a F/O.

The Excel spreadsheet showing Ziegler's two-year upgrade delay can be viewed by clicking here.

However, this data was based on the age 60 mandatory retirement age, which was changed, and added 5 years to upgrades.

Regardless, at the time the Nicolau Award was released Salamtt concluded any pilot not furloughed would have a maximum 2-year upgrade delay with hundreds and hundreds of east pilots sustaining less than a 2-year upgrade delay.

To view an excellent analysis of Salamatt's report and how the Nicolau Award effects east pilots click here.

Chip,

Let me put this in southern terms: Bless your heart.

That is not a compliment nor well wishes. It can either be a shake of the head or a FU. You have been all over the map and you have no credibility.

 

[Pi brat]

Whatever douchbag.

EAP. Hims. Charter. Whatever, just get help.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Here is an interesting email sent to a large group of East pilots this evening:

From: USAPA USAPA <defendusapa@gmail.com>
To: xxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: TRAITORS!!


YOU IDIOTS BETTER NOT XXXX THIS UP. IF FERGESON GETS IN, IT'LL BE ON YOUR SHOULDERS!

WE KNOW EACH AND EVERYONE ON THIS LIST AND YOU'LL BE GETTING PHONE CALLS IF THE WEST COMES OUT OF THIS THE WINNER.

Must be legit, its in all caps like a crazy man, and the spelling and punctuation is all wrong. Yep, written by one of the USAPA mouthbreathers.

 

[cleardirect]

Finally, I understand USAP nees 50% +1 of the total pilot voting population to force an election. The NMB will determine the pool of eligible pilot-voters from which this number is derived. This number includes, all active pilots East and West, furloughed pilots not working for another airline, pilots on medical leave and LOA or military leave. The MDA pilots and J4J pilots may or may not be included, that will be determined by the NMB - therefore it is critical that MDA and J4J pilots submit Authorization Cards.

This is an interesting statement. If the MDA pilots were mainline why would there be a question if they could vote or not?

No one questioned it then.

 

[Res Judicata]

EAP. Hims. Charter. Whatever, just get help.

The Federal Courts have provided all the help I need.

 

[fodase]

Have Jim explain the east system of filling vacancies.

Dude you think sport bidding will be included in next contract? The east is the only pilot group that still has that ridiculous sport bidding. The next contract will not have that, hopefully we can get the west in there so we can cost it and recover that cost savings into cash for the pots

 

[Pi brat]

The Federal Courts have provided all the help I need.

Good. Then stop whining like a stuck pig, because you really are one of the chief whiners.

 

[Pi brat]

Dude you think sport bidding will be included in next contract? The east is the only pilot group that still has that ridiculous sport bidding. The next contract will not have that, hopefully we can get the west in there so we can cost it and recover that cost savings into cash for the pots

I don't know, you tell me. I've suggest the west provision of first right of refusal to many west pilots only to be shot down. Which will it be?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Have Jim explain the east system of filling vacancies.

I would certainly hope that someone on the NAC was smart enough to at least modify the east system in a new contract - maybe take the west system but I don't know enough about it to say for sure. Of course, hoping any of the NAS is smart is a contradiction of terms and begging to be disappointed...

BTW, your little engine start story reminded me of being in the training department. We'd refer to those slavishly following every word of the book without thought those that "would fly into a mountain-side but follow the book to the letter while they did it." Able to almost memorize the book but no judgement. With all the variables, there really is no set time beyond which it's unsave to delay starting the 2nd engine till you get long enough that it's sure to be at ambient temperature (an overnight, for example). So the book plays it safe - make the time period short enough to remove most doubt. Is any wind blowing through the core, what is the engine temp - 200 or 800 degrees, what is the outside temp - -30 or 110 degrees, etc. Pilots get paid for their judgement, not merely for their ability to memorize. You'd have quit if you ever flew out of INT - having the 2nd engine spooling up as you take the runway because it's only 100' from the parking spot to the runway would drive you crazy with all that book learning but so little judgement.

Jim

 

[mrbreeze]

Must be legit, its in all caps like a crazy man, and the spelling and punctuation is all wrong. Yep, written by one of the USAPA mouthbreathers.

It's BS, I have not received this email nor have any of my friends.

breeze