US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Res Judicata]

Sorry Move the spin quite on spot and true!!!! Vote for Ferguson and Koontz they are going to be moving to CLT soon( hope they like it). Our own PHL "Compass Correction" boys brought down Gary Hummel, nice job guys!!!

If your history of successful predictions is any indication, Hummel will win by a landslide. No contract for at least 4 more years but after a Billion lost dollars....who's counting.

 

[Res Judicata]

1-....I have never heard of USCABA, who is that?

2-...what, the truth kinda upset your vision of your lottery win?

breeze

Who is USCABA? Every bitter East pilot who stupidly wasted their career on an airline that has been a clear loser for nearly three decades. That's who USCABA is.

 

[mrbreeze]

Who is USCABA? Every bitter East pilot who stupidly wasted their career on an airline that has been a clear loser for nearly three decades. That's who USCABA is.

Your hateful attitude speaks volumes, Res.

Sure, like you have any authority to judge.

What?....pissed because you haven't leap frogged my 25 yr DOH yet?

Reality is that you don't deserve anymore than your AWA DOH, and will never cash that lottery ticket. You and your greed are the very reason we are at this impasse.

breeze

 

[Move2CLT]

No Move, you got it wrong.

What? Don't like to hear the truth? You guys throw that in our faces all the time, but there is a lot of truth in what SH says in his post. Plenty of blame to go around and you guys are not the victims that you try to project.

breeze

Welcome back from the corn field breeze.

I don't understand why you guys continue to believe that there is any blame on our side. We entered into med/arb because that's what YOU guys wanted. We complied with the process and now expect you to hold up your end.

You blame us because we don't want to give in to your crying.

You can keep crying.

 

[Move2CLT]

Your hateful attitude speaks volumes, Res.

Sure, like you have any authority to judge.

What?....pissed because you haven't leap frogged my 25 yr DOH yet?

Reality is that you don't deserve anymore than your AWA DOH, and will never cash that lottery ticket. You and your greed are the very reason we are at this impasse.

breeze

And even a greater hatred being spewed from you.

Pissed because you couldn't rebuild your pathetic career off of our backs?

Reality is you don't deserve a relative seniority anymore than your US Air RS and you'll never do it at our expense.

Youre more a comedian when you lecture others on greed as you are the epitome of greed.

You and your east whiners are the reason we are here. Take a peek and the ALC video that I posted here on wings. All the blame for our situation is placed on the east and USAPA.

It's all you guys breeze, not us. This is your fault and only your fault.

 

[mrbreeze]

And even a greater hatred being spewed from you.

Pissed because you couldn't rebuild your pathetic career off of our backs?

Reality is you don't deserve a relative seniority anymore than your US Air RS and you'll never do it at our expense.

Youre more a comedian when you lecture others on greed as you are the epitome of greed.

You and your east whiners are the reason we are here. Take a peek and the ALC video that I posted here on wings. All the blame for our situation is placed on the east and USAPA.

It's all you guys breeze, not us. This is your fault and only your fault.

Hey...I am not the one using words like prick, clown, scab, etc....that all comes from the West pilots....I am not bitter. I am not trying to take anything from you guys, just maintaining my position that I brought to this merger. You guys are the ones who are pissed that you can't leapfrog and gain 15 yrs in seniority. Your definition of greed is misplaced because Res is trying to move up in seniority by screwing someone else. You guys are the ones crying and bitchin' cause you can't screw another pilot on the seniority list......not just maintain your status, but actuallly screw someone else and gain 15 yrs in seniority. You think you are entitiled to our jobs and that is where we are drawing the line. We are not bitchin about not being able to come to PHX and screw someone out of their position. It's pretty obvious where the greed is, Move.

I beg to differ, the greed is coming from the West, we are just crusin' along. All the name calling is coming from the West, so there must be some frustration out there.

What I don't get is why a desk monkey like you even cares, unless you are in the Chief Pilot's office and holding a seniority number. It's obvious that you are not flying a block.

Also, "relative seniority" is something you guys brought to the merger, being the Mesa pilots that you are.......sorry, but we don't buy that line of BS!

breeze

 

[SparrowHawk]

Also, "relative seniority" is something you guys brought to the merger, being the Mesa pilots that you are.......sorry, but we don't buy that line of BS!

breeze

Do you really think calling the West Pilot group "Mesa Pilots" is productive?

I've met a few Mesa pilots and like everyone else in the industry they are trying to advance their careers. NO ONE despises Mesa more than I, however to insinuate that there pilots or your brethren are inferior is unproductive and gets you no closer to a raise.

 

[Ames]

Not exactly.

There was a path out prior to Arbitration. It involved Leadership from Doug Parker that was not forth coming, coupled with the lack of vision from Labor. The events that have transpired are neither surprising nor unpredictable.

This is a lesson in what happens when groups become blinded and unable to see the forest for the trees.

Prior to arbitration Parker was asked by the union to stay out of seniority integration. He did as asked. The pilot group followed the union's method of integration, resulting in arbitration. That should have been the end of it.

The west simply did what they were supposed to do. They are not "blinded" and they do "see the forest for the trees". The west will not allow the east (who IS blinded) to undo a previously agreed to arbitration just because they don't like the result.

Parker's lack of leadership began after the arbitration. He was given the legally arbitrated list which satisfied all of his prescribed requirements. Rather than being a leader at that point he became an opportunist, taking advantage of the split between the groups to save a few (million) bucks.

Despite Parker's lack of leadership he still looks good to Wall Street and in his world that's all that counts.

 

[Move2CLT]

Hey...I am not the one using words like prick, clown, scab, etc....that all comes from the West pilots....I am not bitter. I am not trying to take anything from you guys, just maintaining my position that I brought to this merger. You guys are the ones who are pissed that you can't leapfrog and gain 15 yrs in seniority. Your definition of greed is misplaced because Res is trying to move up in seniority by screwing someone else. You guys are the ones crying and bitchin' cause you can't screw another pilot on the seniority list......not just maintain your status, but actuallly screw someone else and gain 15 yrs in seniority. You think you are entitiled to our jobs and that is where we are drawing the line. We are not bitchin about not being able to come to PHX and screw someone out of their position. It's pretty obvious where the greed is, Move.

I beg to differ, the greed is coming from the West, we are just crusin' along. All the name calling is coming from the West, so there must be some frustration out there.

What I don't get is why a desk monkey like you even cares, unless you are in the Chief Pilot's office and holding a seniority number. It's obvious that you are not flying a block.

Also, "relative seniority" is something you guys brought to the merger, being the Mesa pilots that you are.......sorry, but we don't buy that line of BS!

breeze

I agree, you should maintain your position.

Wasn't a 17 year guy at the bottom of your seniority list?

And all the name calling coming from the west?!?! What board have you been on? Its coming from both sides with you included. Remember when you got banned? And don't give me your "I was testing the system" BS.

And I guess "desk monkey" doesn't apply to name calling right? I guess that's that eastie double-standard I've been living under these past years.

Did you get a chance to watch the ALC 2012. Amazing how all the blame is focused on the east and, more specifically, 3 gents and a female. And yes, Johnson was very specific when he said that.

So it sounds like the only greedy ones here are the easties. And the only ones that disagree are easties.

 

[Move2CLT]

Do you really think calling the West Pilot group "Mesa Pilots" is productive?

That couldn't possibly have come from breeze. He says ALL the name calling comes from the west.

 

[Move2CLT]

Not exactly.

There was a path out prior to Arbitration. It involved Leadership from Doug Parker that was not forth coming, coupled with the lack of vision from Labor. The events that have transpired are neither surprising nor unpredictable.

This is a lesson in what happens when groups become blinded and unable to see the forest for the trees.

Ya, you're wrong once again.

Labor, especially the east as they thought Parker was nothing more than a commuter CEO, told Parker that they would handle SLI on their own and to stay out of it. The company laid out its requirements (basically no big cost hits) and let each labor group's SLI process take over.

Parker did as he was asked and stayed out of it.

Once we completed our SLI (the award) it was turned in to the company and, meeting the requirements the company laid out, our list was accepted.

Where Parker did fail was by not telling the east that he had a list and that S22 was now closed.

 

[fodase]

The Most succinct explanation of the situation I have ever read:

The legal question in any DFR is *why* the union has undertaken a particular action. The courts will permit a union to do all sorts of things, but will NOT permit a union to take an action for the mere purposes of political expediency. That question makes no distinction between "ratified" or "un-ratified" seniority lists; such a distinction could only come into play if it carried some weight into the justification for the union's conduct. It certainly doesn't make a difference here because there is a mountain of evidence that USAPA was formed to avoid the outcome of a mutually agreed-to seniority integration arbitration that the employer already accepted. This creates two major problems for USAPA.

First, there really aren't any reasons to reshuffle a seniority list other than political expediency. Rakestraw is the only case that permitted it, but the facts of that case are rare and exceptional. The fact that there WAS a seniority arbitration and that the company accepted it means that USAPA is, in fact, attempting to reshuffle a seniority list. The fact that is was not "implemented" yet makes no difference; but even so, there are the facts of the East MEC unilaterally withdrawing from JNC talks and USAPA encouraging its pre-certification supporters to remain in good standing with ALPA so that they could "vote NO" on any compromise reached between the MECs.

Second, it's not so much THAT a union is afforded a tremendous amount of judicial deference, but it is WHY a union is afforded that deference. The reason is because courts recognize that unions can only fulfill their roles of RESOLVING employer / union disputes when they are given the latitude to make deals. Here, USAPA is in fact CREATING an employer / union dispute by attempting to undermine a previous agreement. Moreover, ARBITRATION is the preferred (and nearly exclusive) method of resolving disputes in the labor world. Lastly, courts NEVER involve themselves in the merits of a seniority integration. So long as the procedure & process are sound, the court could care less what the outcome is. In short, no court is ever going to afford USAPA the deference to undo a previously-settled employer / union agreement regarding seniority for the very same reason that courts normally afford unions such deference in the first place.

Oh - and one more thing - our situation here is not unique. It happened in 1985:
Air Wisconsin's pilots wanted the seniority lists merged on the basis purely of length of service: the pilot hired earliest by either airline would have the greatest seniority in the post-merger Air Wisconsin, the next pilot to be hired by either airline would have the second greatest seniority, and so on down the line. Mississippi Valley's pilots wanted credit for the fact that, before the merger, their airline had been growing more rapidly than Air Wisconsin. The arbitrators split the difference. Their award, set forth in a lengthy document rich in a jargon unfamiliar to us, gave Mississippi Valley's pilots greater seniority than they would have obtained if only length of service had been considered, but less than they had asked for. Some, and probably a majority, of the pilots of the pre-merger Air Wisconsin were unhappy with the award, but none attempted to challenge it in court. Instead, some of them tried to replace ALPA as the collective bargaining representative of Air Wisconsin's pilots with a newly created union, since ALPA was committed by its policy statement to defending the arbitration award.

Air Wisconsin Pilots Prot. Comm. v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213, 215 (7th Cir. 1990).

It is worth noting that this took place at a time when DOH *was* a part of ALPA Merger Policy. Those who blame the Nicolau Award on ALPA's removal of DOH from its policy do so with an unbelievable amount of ignorance. The "gold standard" - as established in the United-Capitol merger of 1961 and later adopted in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger is "fair and equitable." Hire date certainly carries some weight into what is "fair and equitable," but is not (and never has been) the ONLY consideration.

Of course, the ONLY difference between the Air Wisconsin / Mississippi Valley merger and ours is that we succeeded ousting ALPA and Air Wisconsin didn't. But that is also an irrelevant factual distinction because, as I mentioned before, the judicial focus was on the MOTIVE of the Air Wisconsin pilots. Here's what Judge Posner had to say about that:
We need not decide whether, if the plaintiffs and their allies ever succeed in ousting ALPA in favor of a union not pledged to defend the arbitrators' award, the matter of seniority can be reopened in collective bargaining negotiations with the airline, or otherwise revisited. The plaintiffs say the award became a provision of the collective bargaining agreement and expired when that agreement expired. We leave aside the merit of this contention beyond noting that an attempt by a majority of the employees in a collective bargaining unit to gang up against a minority of employees in the fashion apparently envisaged by the plaintiffs could itself be thought a violation of the duty of fair representation by the union that the majority used as its tool.

Air Wisconsin Pilots Prot. Comm. v. Sanderson, 909 F.2d 213, 217 (7th Cir. 1990)

Lee Seham bilked this pilot group for over $7 million in attorneys fees in pursuit of a seniority concoction that will never come to fruition.

 

[700UW]

What about the East pilots in 1992 cutting a sweetheart deal and crossing the IAM M&R picket line?

 

[Move2CLT]

What about the East pilots in 1992 cutting a sweetheart deal and crossing the IAM M&R picket line?

I bring that up and they deny they ever did such a thing.

 

[USA320Pilot]

OpEd for March 19, 2012: Captain Chip Munn Comments on Potential Merger Labor Cooperation

Dear Subscriber,

OpEd for March 19, 2012: Captain Chip Munn Comments on Potential Merger Labor Cooperation

Captain Chip Munn OpEd: Will the pilots participate in the discussion about the potential merits of a potential US Airways - American Airlines merger? If US Airways' Senior Officers suggest that friendly Labor participation needs to be a part of the process, what are they prepared to tell us about what a merger would mean?

Link to OpEd Article

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