US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Ames]

I'm entirely unable to rise sufficiently in subtle process and nuance as to ever match, much less surpass "Right back at you" so; you've no frets over "bowing to your superior intellect". I surrender. The floor is yours...given that some actual real life is in store for the afternoon. Just an honest suggestion; Have or develop the sense to actually enjoy life while you yet are within it's miracle.

I'm guessing that you got beaten up in the school yard.... a lot.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Wow, lots of folks sure seem riled up after the election.

What we have is not a surprise. I doubt that even if a court says NIC is it that we can ever get a NIC TA passed for these two reasons: Every east pilot hired after 1988 would be voting to staple themselves below every west pilot on the property. Those hired after 1988 make up more than 1/3 of the east list right now. For the middle 1/3 of the east list the NIC list is almost as bad as it is for the 1988 and after guys. 2/3 of the east group really cannot vote for anything NIC without shooting themselves in the career foot.

To be honest about all this about the only time anything NIC could have passed in a general vote would have been right before the east guys were recalled, 5 years ago. As it stands now with almost 1800 retirements coming on the east in the next 8.5 years and every current and newhire on the east bidding off all those retirements I don't see how anything NIC can ever get passed vote wise. No matter how you look at it F/O or Capt. voting for NIC means putting up to 1600+ people above you that are not above you now.

If I were one of the newhires that we will be seeing in the near future i would not vote for a NIC scenario unless it was a wad of cash. What we have seen from tempe is not going to do it.

Basically you will need tempe to come up with a true industry standard contract to have a chance at it. Since we only made around 60 mill last year if memory serves and Doug is a numbers guy thats not going to happen. Speaking for myself I prefer to be able to bid the position I want and choose my quality of life without having to commute over making an extra 20 grand or so a year. Maybe it is the 15 years that I had to commute and being bounced around bases with not much say in the matter that has made me feel that way but a casual look at the east bid results shows that I am not alone in that feeling. There are huge numbers of east pilots now that CAN hold a higher paying position now but are not bidding it due to quality of life issues. For me QOL is more important than any money increase I have seen tempe come up with.

I think a huge issue between the east and west is the lack of understanding why the east pilot votes the way he does. It seems that the west guys I have talked to have a "regional" mentality when it comes to bidding, not in a derogatory way, i simply mean that for the west pilot they really never had to put much thought into bidding from a QOL standpoint, they either bid PHX or LAS, and now just PHX. No matter what they bid it did not affect their QOL to a huge degree other than reserve or lineholder. On the east we have reserve or line, commute to reserve or line, commute to international or line, left seat small bus reserve or right seat line holding heavy for about equal pay, work 20 days a month as a junior captain or work 10 days a month as senior heavy f/o for the same money etc etc. Simply put tossing up to 1600 pilots above you by voting yes really limits the above choices for you. The NIC just did too much damage to a east pilots QOL choices and caused the situation we have now.

I just looked at the senior 190 F/O's in PHL, there are many more still bidding to stay on it that are not seat locked than I would have imagined. That is a QOL bid. Same with the rest of the fleet types, the international f/o line holders have large numbers of guys that can hold 320 or 73 Capt. but they don't want it. Again because it would probably put them back on reserve or make them commute etc. I bet the west captains understand my point more than the f/o's do. I am sure there is a large number of them that would not dream of bidding to the east for the same reasons.

If you have never commuted you probably wont understand what I am talking about. If like me you have had to endure many years of commuting you know exactly what I mean. $20,000 more dollars a year is not enough to go back to that hell for me, it will take much better from tempe before I will willingly commute.

So we have a catch 22, we need a good contract to ever get a NIC T/A voted in....we cannot get a good contract without some kind of combined list. As long as both side stick with DOH and NIC we will go nowhere. For me I will never vote for anything NIC for the above reasons, however I would vote for something middle of the road that is neither DOH or NIC that does less damage to my above choices, I am far from alone in my thought on this from what I have seen and heard.

But we will never see any compromise from the west DFR flag wavers so I am content to go on making what i am making and choosing what base, equipment and schedule that I want. I don't work most weekends, I rarely miss a family event or occasion such as birthdays or kids games etc. NIC most likely means I would be back to working the holidays and missing such events. Kirby is not worth it, not by a long shot. And I am not willing to gamble the above events and occasions by voting for a NIC combined list on the almost nonexistant chance that Doug would offer up industry leading or standard contract.

 

[mrbreeze]

Your killing me man! I"ve been at home for so long (they bought my last four trips!) that my blood Guiness content is going critical. Not to mention missing talking to a naked blond woman and then you expect me to believe you actually looked at her eyes!! By the way , what color were they?


Bob

OK, ole wise one, you got me.....it was a little dark in the steam sauna.....blue???

breeze

 

[EastUS1]

If I were surrounded by a bunch of junior pilots chanting "attrition, attrition, wah, wah, gimme my attrition, I deserve my attrition! Get outta my way, old man, I want my attrition" I would not be inclined to help them.

But you, eastus, you're so special. The ultimate altruistic humanitarian. Gosh, I feel so inferior.

Firstly, you must imagine flying with people for a great many years. Additionally, and amazingly enough to you, I don't doubt; I've met none disrespectfully evidencing your attitude = "Get outta my way, old man, I want my attrition" Finally, your noting your feeling that you/"I would not be inclined to help them." falls a bit short of providing sufficient cause for collapsing in utter astonishment.

No need for "Gosh, I feel so inferior." Just realize all do not necessarily share your particular "values" in life, whatever those might actually be.

If accepting the least bit of any altruistic perspective is utterly inconceivable to you, and for better understanding of what overall, very rational elements are also in play with decision making for a great many out east; look to Keroseneuser's post. He notes, among other concerns, the quality of life issues attendant to any acceptance of nic for many in the east.

 

[luvn737s]

The election does not bother me in the slightest..... well, I am kind of upset that my West friends who I told point blank that Eric and Jeff had absolutely no chance of winning, kind of had there hopes dashed...but hey...anyone could see the West has no chance of winning an election at a union specifically designed to put down the West.

So why not put your efforts towards a vote that has a chance of success - A Representation Election? USAPA might get folks to vote out of fear (the only thing that motivates them), but making them defend their record against another bargaining agent, eh, not so much.

 

[mrbreeze]

Wow, lots of folks sure seem riled up after the election.

What we have is not a surprise. I doubt that even if a court says NIC is it that we can ever get a NIC TA passed for these two reasons: Every east pilot hired after 1988 would be voting to staple themselves below every west pilot on the property. Those hired after 1988 make up more than 1/3 of the east list right now. For the middle 1/3 of the east list the NIC list is almost as bad as it is for the 1988 and after guys. 2/3 of the east group really cannot vote for anything NIC without shooting themselves in the career foot.

To be honest about all this about the only time anything NIC could have passed in a general vote would have been right before the east guys were recalled, 5 years ago. As it stands now with almost 1800 retirements coming on the east in the next 8.5 years and every current and newhire on the east bidding off all those retirements I don't see how anything NIC can ever get passed vote wise. No matter how you look at it F/O or Capt. voting for NIC means putting up to 1600+ people above you that are not above you now.

If I were one of the newhires that we will be seeing in the near future i would not vote for a NIC scenario unless it was a wad of cash. What we have seen from tempe is not going to do it.

Basically you will need tempe to come up with a true industry standard contract to have a chance at it. Since we only made around 60 mill last year if memory serves and Doug is a numbers guy thats not going to happen. Speaking for myself I prefer to be able to bid the position I want and choose my quality of life without having to commute over making an extra 20 grand or so a year. Maybe it is the 15 years that I had to commute and being bounced around bases with not much say in the matter that has made me feel that way but a casual look at the east bid results shows that I am not alone in that feeling. There are huge numbers of east pilots now that CAN hold a higher paying position now but are not bidding it due to quality of life issues. For me QOL is more important than any money increase I have seen tempe come up with.

I think a huge issue between the east and west is the lack of understanding why the east pilot votes the way he does. It seems that the west guys I have talked to have a "regional" mentality when it comes to bidding, not in a derogatory way, i simply mean that for the west pilot they really never had to put much thought into bidding from a QOL standpoint, they either bid PHX or LAS, and now just PHX. No matter what they bid it did not affect their QOL to a huge degree other than reserve or lineholder. On the east we have reserve or line, commute to reserve or line, commute to international or line, left seat small bus reserve or right seat line holding heavy for about equal pay, work 20 days a month as a junior captain or work 10 days a month as senior heavy f/o for the same money etc etc. Simply put tossing up to 1600 pilots above you by voting yes really limits the above choices for you. The NIC just did too much damage to a east pilots QOL choices and caused the situation we have now.

I just looked at the senior 190 F/O's in PHL, there are many more still bidding to stay on it that are not seat locked than I would have imagined. That is a QOL bid. Same with the rest of the fleet types, the international f/o line holders have large numbers of guys that can hold 320 or 73 Capt. but they don't want it. Again because it would probably put them back on reserve or make them commute etc. I bet the west captains understand my point more than the f/o's do. I am sure there is a large number of them that would not dream of bidding to the east for the same reasons.

If you have never commuted you probably wont understand what I am talking about. If like me you have had to endure many years of commuting you know exactly what I mean. $20,000 more dollars a year is not enough to go back to that hell for me, it will take much better from tempe before I will willingly commute.

So we have a catch 22, we need a good contract to ever get a NIC T/A voted in....we cannot get a good contract without some kind of combined list. As long as both side stick with DOH and NIC we will go nowhere. For me I will never vote for anything NIC for the above reasons, however I would vote for something middle of the road that is neither DOH or NIC that does less damage to my above choices, I am far from alone in my thought on this from what I have seen and heard.

But we will never see any compromise from the west DFR flag wavers so I am content to go on making what i am making and choosing what base, equipment and schedule that I want. I don't work most weekends, I rarely miss a family event or occasion such as birthdays or kids games etc. NIC most likely means I would be back to working the holidays and missing such events. Kirby is not worth it, not by a long shot. And I am not willing to gamble the above events and occasions by voting for a NIC combined list on the almost nonexistant chance that Doug would offer up industry leading or standard contract.

Excellent post, Kero......the West should also consider that many of the older East pilots will be drawing PBGC money soon. Why vote to screw yourself?

Thanks for putting the truth out there.

breeze

 

[EastUS1]

OK, ole wise one, you got me.....it was a little dark in the steam sauna.....blue???

breeze

You can't fault the man for the question...umm....you were, after all, claiming the eye contact 😉

 

[Pi brat]

So why not put your efforts towards a vote that has a chance of success - A Representation Election? USAPA might get folks to vote out of fear (the only thing that motivates them), but making them defend their record against another bargaining agent, eh, not so much.

Why wait on nic4us? Can't you get the ball rolling?

 

[Ames]

Wow, lots of folks sure seem riled up after the election.

What we have is not a surprise. I doubt that even if a court says NIC is it that we can ever get a NIC TA passed for these two reasons: Every east pilot hired after 1988 would be voting to staple themselves below every west pilot on the property.

Weren't most (if not all) of those guys furloughed when the acquisition was announced? Explain to me again why someone who was furloughed shouldn't be beneath an active employee. I don't care when they were hired the important thing is that pilots on furlough should never be placed above one who is active.

That must be why you guys think the Nic is so unfair - it simply doesn't staple the AWA guys. I am willing to bet that even if the arbitrator decided to staple the west the east still would not be happy. They would want the west to reapply for their jobs.

 

[Ames]

If accepting the least bit of any altruistic perspective is utterly inconceivable to you, and for better understanding of what overall, very rational elements are also in play with decision making for a great many out east; look to Keroseneuser's post. He notes, among other concerns, the quality of life issues attendant to any acceptance of nic for many in the east.

Two questions:

1. What was their quality of life right before the acquisition?

2. What would their quality of life have been if this "merger" hadn't happened.

Reach deep. Be honest. Try really hard not to pontificate

 

[Keroseneuser]

Weren't most (if not all) of those guys furloughed when the acquisition was announced? Explain to me again why someone who was furloughed shouldn't be beneath an active employee. I don't care when they were hired the important thing is that pilots on furlough should never be placed above one who is active.

That must be why you guys think the Nic is so unfair - it simply doesn't staple the AWA guys. I am willing to bet that even if the arbitrator decided to staple the west the east still would not be happy. They would want the west to reapply for their jobs.

Why on earth would a guy that was furloughed and not back on the property care what agreement was made while he was on furlough 5 years ago when it comes time for him to vote? Right now "he" makes up fully 1/3 of the east pilot list.

The same question applies to the couple hundred so far newhires that came after the NIC award (and the ones to be hired). When it comes time to vote on something that will affect what he can bid and where, why would he care what agreement was made before he was even hired?

That is part of the catch 22 I mentioned. Had this been finalized 5 years ago it would be ancient history. But is was not for various reason and we now have the situation where voters in huge numbers would be voting to staple themselves by voting yes on a NIC. It will take a lot of money from tempe to get them to do that.

For the above mentioned guys it is not about fair or unfair. It is simply how will this vote affect his quality of life and what he can bid. We had an 89% turn out for this election, I cannot remember the last time we had such a high number for a union official election. I am willing to bet the missing 11% didnt come from the bottom of the seniority list. My guess is the 11% missing is from the top of the list that figured why bother since they will be retired soon anyhow and no matter who got elected it would not affect them.

The post 1988 hired pilots seem to be open to figuring out some way to make things work from what I have heard. But everyone I have talked to states hands down they cannot vote for a NIC. It does too much damage to them. Large numbers of the middle 1/3 of the list also seem to feel this way from what I see as well.

So far I have not heard anybody from the post 1988 group say they would vote against NIC just to screw the west. It simply has the potential to do too much damage to their quality of life, so they cannot vote for it. You also have to remember that they are looking at it from the "been furloughed before" point of view. I imagine that has to affect what they see as good or bad when it comes to QOL etc. i imagine for many of them they survived on far less than LOA 93 from 2002 thru 2007, so LOA 93 plus good bidding power might be pretty good from that point of view. Many non furloughed guys make it a point not to #### about how much they lost in this or that. the hits the non furloughed took is nothing compared to how bad it was for the 1800 pilots that were tossed on the street in a short period of a couple months after 9/11.

 

[luvn737s]

Kero-
No one gets an up or down vote on the NIC. They have to stare down the barrel of a better contract and choose to repeatedly shoot themselves in order to give junior furloughed pilots more than they are entitled to. USAPA will be forced to present and defend a Nic inclusive contract. There will be no other option. Doing so will absolve them of any west DFR claim, regardless of the vote results.

USAPA cannot hand out all the lifeboats to the east, as much as they might like to. They chose to put themselves in the place of a double agent and the courts will tell them that had they formed USAPA prior to the Transition Agreement, they could have dictated the terms. As it was, they have inherited the results of the arbitration between the parties covered in the Transition Agreement and therefore have no other choice but to follow it through. Under ALPA, the east could have voted it down in perpetuity, but they couldn't deny the vote, nor could they petition for a do-over.

Hate the west, vote no as many times as you like, but USAPA must provide a T/A for the pilots to vote on. For a union whose stock and trade is fear, they seem too scared to let the "ignorant line pilot" vote.

Hummel/Bradford are no different. Same slime, second time.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Kero-
No one gets an up or down vote on the NIC. They have to stare down the barrel of a better contract and choose to repeatedly shoot themselves in order to give junior furloughed pilots more than they are entitled to

I am not debating if or when a NIC vote might or might not come to be, only why i think you are seeing the voting results we keep getting. The problem I think with your line of thinking in the part of your post I quoted is the fact that a far far greater number of pilots have looked at the NIC list and see that it will be devestating to their QOL and bidding power. 1/3 of the east list is in a staple scenario, and at least another 1/3 is in almost as bad a position when they factor in their age and time left compared with any possible gains they may see in a new contract. (Meaning that they are pretty sure that tempe will never come up with enough money to off set the NIC damage) The top 1/3 is where I figure the missing 11% is(not enough time left before 65 to care), so that means that your statement above really only seems to apply to a very small percentage of east votors.

Money from tempe can fix this situation. But you and I both know what Dougs approach to it will be even if you don't want to admit it on here.

 

[crazystnic]

If I were surrounded by a bunch of junior pilots chanting "attrition, attrition, wah, wah, gimme my attrition, I deserve my attrition! Get outta my way, old man, I want my attrition" I would not be inclined to help them.

But you, eastus, you're so special. The ultimate altruistic humanitarian. Gosh, I feel so inferior.

Many top 1000 I fly with have said to me they will not vote for contract with nic because they have been flying with guys to right for so many years and just can't screw them. I take them at their word.

 

[mrbreeze]

Many top 1000 I fly with have said to me they will not vote for contract with nic because they have been flying with guys to right for so many years and just can't screw them. I take them at their word.

ditto here, crazy

Jim, trader, and the West boys can think what they want, but I think it's called unionizm.....a brotherhood that is long overdue.

breeze