US Pilots Labor Discussion

[PullUp]

...Some brotherhood- piXX off the very folks you need to secure any gains so you can "get yours"...

Right back at'cha.

 

[Barrister]

Many top 1000 I fly with have said to me they will not vote for contract with nic because they have been flying with guys to right for so many years and just can't screw them. I take them at their word.

Right on the money.

Anyone below about 700 on the East list takes a hit. Then consider this. You westies keep ranting about the senior guys. Let me tell you what you are starting to face. Most people here have watched Parker long enough to know how he acts and thinks. Most of us don't have 2-3 years but 5-10 years...so the question is how much will we really benefit from a new contract. Lets say typical guy has at most 8 years to retirement. Now we are AT BEST 3 years away from a contract....depending on AMR. So here we are getting a lets just say 30K raise for 5 years or 150K. Taxes eat a third...now just 100K take home OVER A FIVE YEAR PERIOD. Question.......Is that enough to never fly the 330 or the 767...or to hold a better block...or to have weekends off.....but most of all...TO COMPLETELY SCREW OVER THE GUYS UNDER NIC WHO WILL NEVER CHECK OUT AS CAPTAIN......NO

Are we taking what you got....maybe.... if you want to believe that we are taking something an arbitrator gave you in an industry where traditionally you get yours if you hang around long enough!!!
The arb thought it was fair and 2000 of us think it wasn't. NOT the westies fault. Lots of moving pieces here. But you are facing a group that just can't wrap themselves around the concept of putting a NEW HIRE never flown a revenue trip probie head of a 17 year guy who paid thousands in ALPA dues. Go down and try that at the docks and see what happens...try that at the local capenters union...try that at the steelworkers union.......the newbie gets the job before the 17 year guy...rrriiigggghhhhtttt!!!!!!

Get comfortable boys...you can have it in 10 years but until then....NO NIC

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[luvthe9]

The West likes to claim that the East walked away from a consensual agreement regarding talks of seniority, USAPA only took over where ALPA left off. The West had no intentions on an agreement, ALPA did not want them to, they knew this was phase one of a seniority integration with United. Nice try West, United and ALPA, you chose the wrong group of pilots to obtain your goal.

"MEC Chairman’s Message
February 8, 2008

This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday, February 08, 2008.

After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counter proposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.

While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.

I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.

The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.
Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure. We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.

You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.

I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.

Thank you for listening. As always, fly safe and continue to look out for each other."

 

[EastUS1]

View PostAmes, on 25 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:
I'm guessing that you got beaten up in the school yard.... a lot.

Five posts in a row replying to EeastUS. That says a lot, even before one considers whether or not to waste time reading the content.

I'd missed that bit. Oh well..."internet tough guy stuff".... Likely little point in stifling any cherished fantasies by observing that, throughout the history of human conflict or even just competition, the bringing of a pronounced intellectual deficit to any engagement rarely affords that side the very finest of tactical advantages.......

 

[EastUS1]

But you are facing a group that just can't wrap themselves around the concept of putting a NEW HIRE never flown a revenue trip probie head of a 17 year guy who paid thousands in ALPA dues. Go down and try that at the docks and see what happens...try that at the local capenters union...try that at the steelworkers union.......the newbie gets the job before the 17 year guy...rrriiigggghhhhtttt!!!!!!

Perfectly summed up sir.

 

[crazystnic]

Right on the money.

Anyone below about 700 on the East list takes a hit. Then consider this. You westies keep ranting about the senior guys. Let me tell you what you are starting to face. Most people here have watched Parker long enough to know how he acts and thinks. Most of us don't have 2-3 years but 5-10 years...so the question is how much will we really benefit from a new contract. Lets say typical guy has at most 8 years to retirement. Now we are AT BEST 3 years away from a contract....depending on AMR. So here we are getting a lets just say 30K raise for 5 years or 150K. Taxes eat a third...now just 100K take home OVER A FIVE YEAR PERIOD. Question.......Is that enough to never fly the 330 or the 767...or to hold a better block...or to have weekends off.....but most of all...TO COMPLETELY SCREW OVER THE GUYS UNDER NIC WHO WILL NEVER CHECK OUT AS CAPTAIN......NO

Are we taking what you got....maybe.... if you want to believe that we are taking something an arbitrator gave you in an industry where traditionally you get yours if you hang around long enough!!!
The arb thought it was fair and 2000 of us think it wasn't. NOT the westies fault. Lots of moving pieces here. But you are facing a group that just can't wrap themselves around the concept of putting a NEW HIRE never flown a revenue trip probie head of a 17 year guy who paid thousands in ALPA dues. Go down and try that at the docks and see what happens...try that at the local capenters union...try that at the steelworkers union.......the newbie gets the job before the 17 year guy...rrriiigggghhhhtttt!!!!!!

Get comfortable boys...you can have it in 10 years but until then....NO NIC

NICDOA
NPJB

Spot on

 

[EastUS1]

Two questions:

1. What was their quality of life right before the acquisition?

2. What would their quality of life have been if this "merger" hadn't happened.

Reach deep. Be honest. Try really hard not to pontificate

Fair enough. I'll keep it simple.

1. What relevance to present times and circumstances does that hold?

2. Who can say? What would your quality of life be if you had been crippled or killed in one of the many thousands of traffic accidents happening every year? Given that most of us have been fortunate in avoiding becoming part of those sad statistics; does such luck magically grant us our own lane in traffic?....or allow us to cut in front of any particular line of waiting cars? The point being that we exist in actual, versus imaginary circumstance. "What If" counts for nothing in life, and holds no value outside of conversation and debate performed purely for entertainment. "What If' is arguably the least supportable branch of the "Woulda'/Coulda'/Shoulda" family tree. I believe that you are suggesting that, via AWA having "saved" all involved, (I'll leave that bit alone) that, as an AWA guy, who personally did NOTHING to make this "merger" happen...that you're especially entitled to have your own lane in traffic...or at least cut in front of other cars.

Speaking of cars; When merging into traffic..isn't it generally the case that the vehicle which arrived first, goes first? What you "have", with nic, is something too many view as completely outside the boundaries of sense and reason, and against all natural protocol. No matter. This whole nic business could be pointlessly argued into eternity. Circumstances are as they are.

 

[73320]

Right on the money.


Get comfortable boys...you can have it in 10 years but until then....NO NIC

NICDOA
NPJB

Which 10 year time frame are you talking about? The one that started 7 years ago when the west would inherit it all in 10 years or 10 years from now? Is it a sliding decade?

 

[fatherabraham]

Which 10 year time frame are you talking about? The one that started 7 years ago when the west would inherit it all in 10 years or 10 years from now? Is it a sliding decade?

The 10 year slide scale starts when the least senior furloughed AAA pilot who chose to return is 10 years from what the government says is mandatory retirement age. Tis fairest IMO

FA

 

[Phoenix]

Which 10 year time frame are you talking about? The one that started 7 years ago when the west would inherit it all in 10 years or 10 years from now? Is it a sliding decade?

Age 60. Age 65. Age 70. Age 75. Age 80.....

 

[Phoenix]

Actually, I like your logic. Since LOA93 applied specifically to East pilots, and using your logic, the West pilots get a share of the provisions in it, then we have a few thousand Group 2 pilots that would like to have the West contract pay rate of, what, $153/hr? Fair is fair. If the West gets to benefit from the East contract, then the East should be able to do the same thing.

Also, under your logic, the West pilots should have gotten a portion of the $70 million payout since, according to you, they can cherrypick the parts of LOA93 they want to have.

Bottom line is, the EAST pilots had 36% of the profit sharing PRIOR to the merger. The TRANSITION agreement split that between the two groups. The EAST MEC gave it away trying to drum up support for pay parity.

You would never agree with me anyway, so lets just move on.

Driver...

Never agree... be thankful you were never married to him.

 

[Zone5]

Again, you've had four years to get parity. You even had total control over your custom union that cared ONLY for your interest. Where is it? Where's the parity? Four years, a billion dollars lost chasing your DOH ghoast and yet STILL with every resource at your finger tips you don't have Parity....6.5 years later.

You just voted for 3more years of no change as well. I'd say the Parity problem Sits solidly on your side of the equation. I'm sure you just blame ALPA but since when have any of you taken personal responsibility for a single thing? Never.

It's YOUR sandbox, you own ALL the toys as well....

WHERE IS YOUR PARITY?

Parity? I don't want parity with the West. It would be a pay cut!

seajay

 

[CallawayGolf]

Fair enough. I'll keep it simple.

1. What relevance to present times and circumstances does that hold?

2. Who can say? What would your quality of life be if you had been crippled or killed in one of the many thousands of traffic accidents happening every year? Given that most of us have been fortunate in avoiding becoming part of those sad statistics; does such luck magically grant us our own lane in traffic?....or allow us to cut in front of any particular line of waiting cars? The point being that we exist in actual, versus imaginary circumstance. "What If" counts for nothing in life, and holds no value outside of conversation and debate performed purely for entertainment. "What If' is arguably the least supportable branch of the "Woulda'/Coulda'/Shoulda" family tree. I believe that you are suggesting that, via AWA having "saved" all involved, (I'll leave that bit alone) that, as an AWA guy, who personally did NOTHING to make this "merger" happen...that you're especially entitled to have your own lane in traffic...or at least cut in front of other cars.

Speaking of cars; When merging into traffic..isn't it generally the case that the vehicle which arrived first, goes first? What you "have", with nic, is something too many view as completely outside the boundaries of sense and reason, and against all natural protocol. No matter. This whole nic business could be pointlessly argued into eternity. Circumstances are as they are.

1. As a matter of law, the courts will not concern themselves with the present as much as they will with the agreements signed in the past that are still legally binding on the parties today.

2. The arbitrator gets to say because both sides agreed to enter into binding arbitration to resolve the question of how the integration should be conducted. QOL, LOS, DOH were only tertiary considerations used to craft the integration and there was no requirement to promote these tertiary factors above the primary factor of ALPA merger policy and then the pre-agreed upon conditions for acceptance by Management in the TA.

Traffic merging into a single lane may or may not be done based on which car arrived first. One case where it would not work this way is when there is a traffic cop positioned to direct the flow of traffic based on his sole discretion. He may elect to allow cars in one lane or from one direction go until all cars are clear before allowing the next lane to proceed. If he is only concerned with first in, first out, he may cause a bigger traffic jam rather than allowing cars, even newly arriving ones, to proceed at his skilled and experienced command of the situation. The point is that once the traffic cop arrives on the scene, all drivers are expected and required to obey his directions for how traffic will be merged, no matter when they may have arrived at the point of confluence.

 

[EastUS1]

1. As a matter of law, ....

The point is that once the traffic cop arrives on the scene, all drivers are expected and required to obey his directions for how traffic will be merged, no matter when they may have arrived at the point of confluence.

Fine and dandy Callaway. What you blow right by is that"The point is" that the traffic officer is both required and expected to facilitate said traffic flowing as best as circumstances allow. How many years into this mess now?...and...ANYONE can yet imagine or even slightly suggest that nic, in ANY way, shape or form, facilitated said flow???....Words just fail me there....a bigger, or certainly longer lasting "traffic jam" has never been seen before. If nic, served as said "traffic cop" for anything approaching this jam in the actual streets ...well...I can only imagine that he'd have been pulled off duty long ago for complete and utter incompetence...if not just taken directly to an asylum.

"As a matter of law..." Oh well. None can know the ultimate outcome of this mess via any current matter of law. Even assuming that, on whatever schedule, eventual and final determination ever falls in favor of the west...well...then all you have to do, as was the case from the onset of this insanity, is find some methodology through which you can actually force the nic into being, regardless of how anyone votes. 'Rotsa' 'Ruck with that.

You needn't waste any time or effort on my part. All you will ever get from me is a "NO!!!!" vote on anything containing nic....period.

Same ole' Same ole'...........

Thanks for at least allowing for a civil exchange, whatever our manifest differences of opinion clearly are. Have a good one.

 

[nic4us]

Fair enough. I'll keep it simple.

Speaking of cars; When merging into traffic..isn't it generally the case that the vehicle which arrived first, goes first? What you "have", with nic, is something too many view as completely outside the boundaries of sense and reason, and against all natural protocol. No matter. This whole nic business could be pointlessly argued into eternity. Circumstances are as they are.

Yes, the vehicle that arrived first goes first.....and since every east employee arrived after even the most junior West pilot at the surviving carrier, the West should have gone first...

But, the West never sought to staple the east in the construction of the seniority list, unlike the east whose mandate from day one and still is to staple the West.


Perhaps the better way to look at it is both cars arrived at the same time...so who has the right of way? The car on the right. Who is th ecar on the right? Whoever Nicolau said it was!!!


Now as to the other perpetuating myth on this board. You eastholes are so full of your own manure your eyes are brown. The its all about attrition BS is nothing more than that....BS. You don't just want attrition, you want the combined attrition, plus the benefits of the merger, plus whatever else you reneging scumbags can steal from the West.

So, your no vote is now meaningless, you will never get to cast that vote, too bad the DFR scab union has failed its pilots and cannot even perform its most basic charge of bargaining and enforcing a CBA for them to vote no on. Oh well, time to relieve them of that duty.