US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

So you're saying that "fair" is in the eye of the beholder then, right?

It depends on the meaning of "is." .....W. Clinton....left.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It depends on the meaning of "is." .....W. Clinton....left.

Sure. So fairness cannot be quantified through one absolute metric, is that right?

 

[cleardirect]

There are too many opinions of what might be fair. Is relative position important? Are years of service important? What about the old myth of career expectations? Earnings? Age? Experience? ALPA says you should hold hands and if you don't agree, let some outside influence decide for you. (A great way to avoid responsibility, but it cost them 10 mil. per year.) Spin the wheel? Alphabetical order? Lottery? Guess the pennies in the jar? (1734).........................Lottery....that's it!....but who gets to draw first?

ALPA is not involved with this so why bring it up?


I guess it depends on what you consider important as to what is fair.

I know how about we let a neutral third party that does not have a dog in the fight decide what is fair. We could call him oh I don't know an arbitrator. Now if everyone would agree that his final word and decision is final we can all move forward.

You listed a lot of things to consider. There are many on this board that think only one thing should be used. Guess opinions vary.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Sure. So fairness cannot be quantified through one absolute metric, is that right?

I think it is safe to say, and reasonable, that length of service should be a metric which is included in all labor seniority integrations. A recipe that works may include any number of additional ingredients depending on each individual case, but LOS to SLI's is like water is to soup.

 

[flyingskier]

Sure. So fairness cannot be quantified through one absolute metric, is that right?

Aqua,

The answer has to be the method that will produce unity post merger. If one group is severely harmed by the SLI and unity is destroyed for years to come, then the only winner is management. Not what is fair to you, fair to me, what will allow the groups to come together.

Skier

 

[cleardirect]

Just finished reading the presidents last regurgation I mean message. What a nut case good riddance.

This however caught my eye.

USAPA was designed to give the membership the power to hold the union accountable. How? Stay involved and figure out who to believe.


Figure out who to believe? Why do I need to do that? Shouldn't the union be telling the membership the truth? What happened to the more transparent union usapa was supposed to be. But now I have to figure out the truth? Is Cleary admitting that he and the communications committee has been untruthful with the membership?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua,

The answer has to be the method that will produce unity post merger. If one group is severely harmed by the SLI and unity is destroyed for years to come, then the only winner is management. Not what is fair to you, fair to me, what will allow the groups to come together.

Skier

What one metric in a seniority integration leads to unity then?

 

[cleardirect]

Aqua,

The answer has to be the method that will produce unity post merger. If one group is severely harmed by the SLI and unity is destroyed for years to come, then the only winner is management. Not what is fair to you, fair to me, what will allow the groups to come together.

Skier

Is DOH going to not harm the west and bring unity?

 

[USA320Pilot]

How Is it a do over when it never came to pass? Face it. USAPA did exactly what you claim it was formed to do. Totally stopped the Nic. Unbelievable success and Cleary saw it through. Bravo Mike!

This is an opinion not a fact. Judge Silver will be the one who decides "USAPA did exactly what you claim it was formed to do. Totally stopped the Nic." In my opinion, she is siding with AOL and US Airways who believe contract law and the RLA requires the Nicolau Award to be implemented per the company's oral argument and court filings.

Furthermore, the last four pilot seniority integrations: Trump Shuttle/US Airways, US Airways-America, Delta-Northwest, and Frontier-Republic were done with slotting. If US Airways and American Airlines merge I suspect that integration will be done per the McCaskill-Bond amendment, which certainly does not ensure DOH.

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA President's Message: April 17, 2012

Fellow Pilots,

Four years ago on April 18, 2008 I officially began a four-year wind sprint working for USAPA pilots as an Officer of your union. We had just been elected as the bargaining agent for the US Airways pilots. We had no money, no office, no infrastructure, and an unprecedented mission: to finally represent US Airways pilots across the full spectrum of the seniority list and to be more aggressive in defending all of our pilots' rights.

At its inception, USAPA was deliberately staffed with inexperienced people, placing distance between our new organization and ALPA. Along the way, we fended off a concerted dues boycott meant to break our financial backs; a former bargaining agent who interfered with every aspect of our set up, from the transfer of files to the creation of business relationships with vendors; a management who was intent on frustrating every intent of labor law for their advantage; and even an untimely flock of geese over the Hudson. We defeated a well-orchestrated effort to force a hideous seniority integration bargaining proposal on a segment of our pilot group that had sacrificed and given almost everything to keep their company afloat.

Throughout all this, we've fostered strong working relationships with key members of the aviation community, including the International Brotherhood of Teamsters to CAPA, and many on Capitol Hill. Through team effort we helped shed light on serious safety issues, flawed TSA initiatives that were intrusive and nonsensical, and we pulled the Known Crew Member program across the finish line. Despite the obstacles, somehow we managed to create a fully functioning pilot union from scratch. Along the way we had the temerity to stand up and fight like our pilot group had never done before -- against foes and on topics that we all knew had merit but against long odds. Each USAPA member can be very proud of these accomplishments because they have required every ounce of our collective initiative. These are your accomplishments, not any one person's. Don't let the naysayers strip you of your legitimate pride for the sake of their political expediency.

As I prepare to leave office and hand the keys to the new team of Officers, I want to share this perspective with you: USAPA has no backstop in the form of a "National" umbrella organization like some other pilot unions have. Just like our brothers and sisters at APA, SWAPA and IPA, we are all we've got -- the sole authority that shapes our destiny. That realization should cause each of us a moment of pause. USAPA will not survive years of self-serving political maneuvers that provide only for those pilots on the inside who want to prove themselves the better politicians. Union work can be a gratifying way to serve your fellow pilots, but everyone needs to remember that we are pilots first.

While self-styled politicians and the perpetual naysayers have caused significant harm to USAPA pilots over the years, the good news is this: USAPA was designed to give the membership the power to hold the union accountable. How? Stay involved and figure out who to believe. Attend meetings when you can. Read the Iron Compass and Domicile Updates carefully, and call your Domicile Representatives frequently to provide feedback and to get real information. Above all, be discerning about where you get your "news." For purely political reasons, there are those who thrive on misleading the uninformed. The damage they cause is palpable, and the only antidote is tuning them out and talking directly to your Representatives.

Let me leave you with this final thought: Don't allow the naysayers to convince you that standing up for yourselves against long odds is a concept you should abandon. Guard the courage and willingness to defend yourselves from the greed of others' jealously. Guard the audacity to stand up for yourselves as if your dignity depends on it. Because it does.

Sincerely,

Captain Mike Cleary
President

 

[traderjake]

From Cleary's final letter:

"Don't allow the naysayers to convince you that standing up for yourselves against long odds is a concept you should abandon."

Is Cleary admitting that the odds don't favor USAPA achieving it's goal of a DOH seniority list?

 

[N924PS]

USAPA President's Message: April 17, 2012

Fellow Pilots,

As I prepare to leave office and hand the keys to the new team of Officers.....

Sincerely,

Captain Mike Cleary
President

Mike, don't forget to turn in the keys to the Taurus's too.

And check the trunk and under the seats for Randy's missing computer.

 

[mrbreeze]

Your post was about Air Tran and how much better off they are for standing up to SWA. Do a little research or ask an Air Tran pilot what it cost him when they didn't accept SWA's first offer.

In all honesty, though, you are clueless on all fronts and I am not poking a stick at you, simply stating a fact.

Ames,

You're right that I don't know all the details about the Airtran SLI with SWA. My point was that they didn't get stapled which was the proposal to the Frontier pilots. That whole statement was in response to another post that someone threw out about Frontier and SWA....it had nothing to do with the topic and I gave it little thought with the response.

My whole point about trader's claiming that the "4 arbritrtions" is the new world order was that of those 4, only 2 are past the SLI and are a functioning unit.

Also, we are the only group where the arbitrator let junior pilots leap frog by 15 yrs.....thus untested waters....and legal challenges.

I asked him to stop throwing out the praises of the success of the "4 arbritrations". He didn't like my analysis and started the name calling.

breeze

 

[nevergiveup]

From Cleary's final letter:

"Don't allow the naysayers to convince you that standing up for yourselves against long odds is a concept you should abandon."

Is Cleary admitting that the odds don't favor USAPA achieving it's goal of a DOH seniority list?

 

[USA320Pilot]

With rumors swirling US Airways has presented its AA merger plan to AMR's UCC, US Airways apparently leaking to the WSJ AMR M&A revenue and non union cost merger synergies could be $1.5 billion per year, and US Airways' senior management reportedly having met with APA's Board and AA's other unions...a merger announcement may be on the immediate horizon.

Rumors are being leaked that US Airways has reached an agreement on a pilot CBA with APA, which could be the DAL contract plus 3%, AA's DB Plan frozen, greater productivity, and the basis for a DL-NW pilot SLI.

Click here to look at DL pilot pay rates.

In my opinion, with AOL attorney Andy Jacobs already having met with APA, the AA-US SLI could be the Nicolau Award as the US starting point after Judge Silver rules, a 7-year fence, widebody C&Rs, and a ratio integration similar to DL-NW.

USA320Pilot