US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

how can you be senior to everyone at awa

Time once again for some fact checks.

First, because Nicolau did not accept the West's methodology of a slotting beginning from the top, 517 east pilots were placed senior to the #1 West pilot. So if you were in the top 517 at US, you are senior to all West pilots. Also, if you were the #1000 pilot at US, you would be senior to all but around 200 West pilots, so you would have gone from 1000/2800 to 1200/5400, not a bad deal and yes you would be senior to almost all the West pukes?

Second, I am aware of Cleardirect's identity, and know for certain he was never furloughed from AWA or US. Certain east posters keep claiming that both Clear and myself have just returned from furlough. Again, I am a line holding 320 captain, have been since well prior to the merger, never been furloughed. It seems as if these posters are projecting their career onto Clear and myself.

Third, many of the West furloughees are declining recall. They are already captains at Allegiant and Virgin America. Just like former US furloughees who were hired at Jet Blue and AWA etc..never to return, we have lost some of the best pilots to the competition. A far cry from any sort of supposed shame to being furloughed.

Fourth, from the perspective of where we are today, there is no DFRII coming. There will be no DOH with C&Rs ever offered in a tentative joint contract. usapa is presently under the same restrictions as the original injunction from Wake, because the company is not moving off the Nic until a court tells them they can, and it is unlikely any court will grant immunity from some future event (talk about not ripe).

Finally, has usapa given an update about the SCOTUS hearing? If they said anything other than a dressed up version of "holy cow, there is a real good chance Seham is going to get made a fool of in front of the entire nation", then they are fibbing a wee bit. If they only commented on the unlikely chance of the justices accepting the case, then usapa is downplaying the fact that the SC pulled this for consideration. While I doubt they will hear it, because the company's request for DJ would still allow resolution in a lower court and not waste their time, I also have to believe they may want to clear up the 9ths incredibly bad decision, and that it is highly likely Scalia will call Seham a moron for the history books to document.

 

[Barrister]

Then why Did a Jury Convict your fake union of a DFR? DOH "makes the cut just fine" in your own demented head....unfortunately for you, reality works differently. That's been made obvious....to the sane among us that is. Final and Binding is exactly that. Your unemployed, hopeless pilots don't get to replace line holding Captains at Airlines they never even worked for. That wasn't ever, (even remotely) the deal.

Another 9-11 scenario would do just that...Which by no means is a mistake You guys are outside the Law every step of the way, all you have to do is provide the ripeness, The West will Provide the suppository.

How exactly does someone who comes back from furlough and takes their rightful position on the list replace anyone.
That is the big question you can't handle. He doesn't take anything from you because he doesn't come back until
their is a slot for him. Whatever you have out west you will keep and whatever you don't already have
you ain't getting.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

How exactly does someone who comes back from furlough and takes their rightful position on the list replace anyone.........

That is the big question you can't handle.
NICDOA
NPJB

I can handle this "big question"..

Because he does not take his "rightful position". Any pilot returning from furlough would be restored to their "rightful position" at the bottom of the list.

What usapa wants to do is return that pilot to a position that leepfrogs 85% of the West pilot group, captures the West's pilots seniority, and steals the West pilots career.

That is the big reality you can't get around and why it will never happen.

DOHDOA.

 

[Barrister]

Time once again for some fact checks.

First, because Nicolau did not accept the West's methodology of a slotting beginning from the top, 517 east pilots were placed senior to the #1 West pilot. So if you were in the top 517 at US, you are senior to all West pilots. Also, if you were the #1000 pilot at US, you would be senior to all but around 200 West pilots, so you would have gone from 1000/2800 to 1200/5400, not a bad deal and yes you would be senior to almost all the West pukes?

Second, I am aware of Cleardirect's identity, and know for certain he was never furloughed from AWA or US. Certain east posters keep claiming that both Clear and myself have just returned from furlough. Again, I am a line holding 320 captain, have been since well prior to the merger, never been furloughed. It seems as if these posters are projecting their career onto Clear and myself.

Third, many of the West furloughees are declining recall. They are already captains at Allegiant and Virgin America. Just like former US furloughees who were hired at Jet Blue and AWA etc..never to return, we have lost some of the best pilots to the competition. A far cry from any sort of supposed shame to being furloughed.

Fourth, from the perspective of where we are today, there is no DFRII coming. There will be no DOH with C&Rs ever offered in a tentative joint contract. usapa is presently under the same restrictions as the original injunction from Wake, because the company is not moving off the Nic until a court tells them they can, and it is unlikely any court will grant immunity from some future event (talk about not ripe).

Finally, has usapa given an update about the SCOTUS hearing? If they said anything other than a dressed up version of "holy cow, there is a real good chance Seham is going to get made a fool of in front of the entire nation", then they are fibbing a wee bit. If they only commented on the unlikely chance of the justices accepting the case, then usapa is downplaying the fact that the SC pulled this for consideration. While I doubt they will hear it, because the company's request for DJ would still allow resolution in a lower court and not waste their time, I also have to believe they may want to clear up the 9ths incredibly bad decision, and that it is highly likely Scalia will call Seham a moron for the history books to document.

Your posts never fail to reveal a shocking lack of knowledge as to how things work. Get a life!!
Just think, for all the time you spend whining on the boards you could have:
1.gotten an MBA
2. maybe a J.D.
3. or an M.D.
4. Started a small business or
5. been a Captain somewhere else by now.
6. Or just go work for BB as his pool boy!! Naw just kidding!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

I can handle this "big question"..

Because he does not take his "rightful position". Any pilot returning from furlough would be restored to their "rightful position" at the bottom of the list.

What usapa wants to do is return that pilot to a position that leepfrogs 85% of the West pilot group, captures the West's pilots seniority, and steals the West pilots career.

That is the big reality you can't get around and why it will never happen.

DOHDOA.

Can you spell: Seperate OPS......

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

I can handle this "big question"..

Because he does not take his "rightful position". Any pilot returning from furlough would be restored to their "rightful position" at the bottom of the list.

What usapa wants to do is return that pilot to a position that leepfrogs 85% of the West pilot group, captures the West's pilots seniority, and steals the West pilots career.

That is the big reality you can't get around and why it will never happen.

DOHDOA.

You Dude.....it already has happened. Did you ever buy that comfortable rocker I told you to buy 2 years ago.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

You Dude.....it already has happened. Did you ever buy that comfortable rocker I told you to buy 2 years ago.

NICDOA
NPJB

I have a most comfortable rocker, in a comfortable house, and 3 out of 6 of your list ain't bad. Don't need #5 cause I am already a captain here.

Seperate ops suits the West fine for the time being. We don't like the out of seniority furloughs, but are digging the min fleet, won a grievence on that and just waiting for the company to pay.

My shocking lack of knowledge predicts that the company is tiring of the whole seperate ops thing (did I spell that correctly?), and that what has already happened is only a temporary stop gap on our road to our rightful positions.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Finally, has usapa given an update about the SCOTUS hearing? If they said anything other than a dressed up version of "holy cow, there is a real good chance Seham is going to get made a fool of in front of the entire nation", then they are fibbing a wee bit. If they only commented on the unlikely chance of the justices accepting the case, then usapa is downplaying the fact that the SC pulled this for consideration. While I doubt they will hear it, because the company's request for DJ would still allow resolution in a lower court and not waste their time, I also have to believe they may want to clear up the 9ths incredibly bad decision, and that it is highly likely Scalia will call Seham a moron for the history books to document.

So then, which is it? You say you don't think SC will hear it, but you think they want to clear up the 9th's decision? They can only do that if they hear it.

As for Scalia calling Seham a moron, I think Scalia, being the arrogant bastard that he is, thinks EVERYONE is a moron compared to his witless intellectual "charm."

 

[cleardirect]

Can you spell: Seperate OPS......

NICDOA
NPJB

Works for the west just fine. Separate ops means we stay on our separate contracts. My current contract protects me far better than any contract usapa could get.

Enjoy LOA 93. You can retire on it for all we care.

 

[luvthe9]

Works for the west just fine. Separate ops means we stay on our separate contracts. My current contract protects me far better than any contract usapa could get.

Enjoy LOA 93. You can retire on it for all we care.

Lets work together to keep seperate ops, can we all agree on this? Will have a sit down with Dougie, then we can all be happy. 😀

 

[CV580ETOPS]

So then, which is it? You say you don't think SC will hear it, but you think they want to clear up the 9th's decision? They can only do that if they hear it.

As for Scalia calling Seham a moron, I think Scalia, being the arrogant bastard that he is, thinks EVERYONE is a moron compared to his witless intellectual "charm."

This from someone who knows a thing or 2 about "witless intellectual charm "

cv

 

[Metroyet]

How exactly does someone who comes back from furlough and takes their rightful position on the list replace anyone.
That is the big question you can't handle. He doesn't take anything from you because he doesn't come back until
their is a slot for him. Whatever you have out west you will keep and whatever you don't already have
you ain't getting.

NICDOA
NPJB

I already explained "exactly how" that little scenario happens. Another 9-11 style furlough and VOILA'!! Line holding Captains in PHX get to hit the street, being replaced with those who were hopelessly unemployed at the time of the Merger. A little convenient no?

BTW, I saw the "WARNING SEVER TURBULENCE AHEAD" Billboard by the airport...I burst out laughing. You guys are so Effing delusional is it jaw dropping. The only one laughing harder than me is Doug Parker.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[/b]


This from someone who knows a thing or 2 about "witless intellectual charm "

cv

Yes. He reads it here from the West supporters everyday.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I already explained "exactly how" that little scenario happens.

Barrister is the one (or one of those) who don't know how things work. Like about all the East posters, he thinks that just because there's those 2 magic letters after DOH - C&R - that no court will find that using DOH is a ripe and winnable DFR suit.

Nor does he and others remember what the 9th said - USAPA can possibly escape a DFR by coming up with a solution that doesn't do the harm the West fears - and that is the only way USAPA will ever escape the NIC. So far USAPA's C&R's do not eliminate the harm the west fears since they are a farce.

Jim

 

[Al Legheny]

Works for the west just fine. Separate ops means we stay on our separate contracts. My current contract protects me far better than any contract usapa could get.

Enjoy LOA 93. You can retire on it for all we care.

OK Chief. I'll take your word for it, but if I was you I would be looking at my Section 1- Scope language.

The important items are:

1. All or subtantially all of the assets or equity.... The devil is in the details. What about a partial sale or merger/buyout what language is controlling. Hint...there isn't any in the West Contract.

2. The company will make reasonable efforts....OK, if you like that language it's your career.

3. Lastly, the McCaskill Bond amendment to the 2007 Omnibus budget bill has the following language.

(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
(B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

Current east protections are triggered by a 20% sale of assets. There is also a $250million posion pill payment and other features. If my CEO stood up and told me that 24% of my base flying was not profitable, I would want better scope language that what is shown below.



F. SUCCESSORSHIP AND MERGERS
1. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor or assign of the Company unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended. For purposes of this paragraph, a successor or assign shall be defined as an entity (other than an air carrier or an entity which owns or is owned by an air carrier)
which acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company through a single transaction or multi step related transactions which close within a twelve (12) month period.

2. In the event of a complete merger between the Company and another air carrier (i.e., the combination of all or substantially all the assets of the two carriers) where the surviving carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations, the following procedures will apply: (1) if the Company is the surviving carrier, the Company will integrate
the two Pilot groups in accordance with Association Merger Policy if both groups are represented by the Association, and in accordance with Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny Mohawk LPP’s if pilots of the Company’s merger partner are not represented by the Association, and (2) if the Company is not the surviving carrier, the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate the two pilot groups in the same manner as stated in (1) of this paragraph.

3. In the event the Company or America West Holdings Corporation acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of another air carrier, or another air carrier acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company, the Company will meet promptly with the Association to negotiate a possible “Fence Agreement” to be in effect during the period, if any, the two carriers are operated separately without integration of the pilot work force. These discussions shall not be pursuant to Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, and reaching an agreement with the Association shall not be a prerequisite for closing, or any other aspect of the transaction or operations pursuant to the transaction.