US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Reed Richards]

Please post any credible information that you have about the profitability of the separate domiciles? The company does not report that way so you have no clue.

Hope that you short timers have all your bills paid from that outstanding LOA 93. But if you are all so set for retirement or company collapse than you don't need this job right? But if you don't need this job why the big fight to become captain? Our best bet is the deal we all made, binding arbitration. You see we do not want a contract that usapa would bring.

Separate ops we still have min fleet and a better contract. We still get the place in time anyway. We just don't have to deal you you guys. So the sooner you guys leave, retire the better everyone will be.

Ba Bye

BTW that profit sharing check will make a nice donation for the new year. Free money is the best money to give.

Clear, over the last 5 years you have all made on average about 1K more a month than those of us on the East. It does indeed smart when you point that out...but please remember that when it comes time to ratify a contract. What if you actually got Nic in a tentative agreement , only to see it fail on a system wide vote? You won’t ever get that, but it is food for thought.

Separate ops indeed is the only path for our two groups. We will continue to suck hind t... with LOA 93, in the hopes that many will soon upgrade to Blockholder F/O, Reserve C/O, Blockholding C/O, and eventually Group I C/O and 330 C/O. Small raises indeed, when you consider the top of scale is only abound 160K. My family says bravo, take it if you can..beats Nic any day. My wife is young (not Sue Storm young!!!) and has a very good career going in real estate. Not everyone is so blessed. But even she "gets it." So glad she is working in Western PA, and not Southern AZ!

We will all retire in due time, in the same time frame we would with or without a higher paying contact. Your decision, or maybe not, should be to join us in our Scope in hope of better days, and our soon to follow almost complete exit from the property. You guys and gals could have traded some very short time gains for some very long term career prosperity. Too bad you have the likes of J. Mack and AWE320 carrying your flag! This could have worked out a lot better for us all if you had supported some very basic compromises to the NIC. Too late now.

Take care,

RR

 

[AWA320]

Clear, over the last 5 years you have all made on average about 1K more a month than those of us on the East. It does indeed smart when you point that out...but please remember that when it comes time to ratify a contract. What if you actually got Nic in a tentative agreement , only to see it fail on a system wide vote. You won’t ever get that, but it is food for thought.

Separate ops indeed is the only path for our two groups. We will continue to suck hind t... with LOA 93, in the hopes that many will soon upgrade to Blockholder F/O, Reserve C/O, Blockholding C/O, and eventually Group I C/O and 330 C/O. Small raises indeed, when you consider the top of scale is only abound 160K. My family says bravo, take it if you can..beats Nic any day. My wife is young (not Sue Storm young!!!) and has a very good career going in real estate. Not everyone is so blessed. But even she "gets it." So glad she is working in Western PA, and not Southern AZ!

We will all retire in due time, in the same time frame we would with or without a higher paying contact. You decision, or maybe not, is to join us in our Scope in hope of better days, and our soon to follow almost complete exit from the property. You guys and gals could have traded some very short time gains for some very long term career prosperity. Too bad you have the likes of J. Mack and AWE320 carrying your flag! This could have worked out a lot better for us all, even if you had supported some very basic compromises to the NIC. Too late now.

Take care,

RR

This company will not survive seperate ops. The east operation was a failure and everyone knows that as it was twice bankrupt before we got involved. We have lost much of what we were out west as a result of this merger so MERGED is where the company wants to go.

Now I posted last week an article where a compnay was asking the court to allow it to impose what it felt was a fair contract. Is that what you want to have happen once the courts tell LCC that it must honor the terms of the TA or risk being sued?? Do you want a company imposed contract?? You had best be thinking about that as a real possibility.

Now wiith regard to your personal comment about me and John, you are losing it if you think for one second that we are going to stronged armed into what YOU WANTED after the fact. You begged for arbitration and you got what you asked for. Its people like yourself that had the opportunity to deal with this PRIOR but said no. If you gonna tell it then tell it all!!
AWA320

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well the difference between you and I is I dont think with or bring emotion into business. I can't speak on the negotiations with the f/a's other than to say that they will drag it out for only so long. They have come back low so that the f/a will meet them in the middle by lowering their expectations. Business negotiations 101 Jr.

Now do you care to answer my question on how usapa gets to an end game should the DJ get dismissed?? I dont really think that it will but do you have an answer? Not your usual emotional fear ridden response either please. Something rational please.

AWA320

Your correct about 2 things they will drag it out and yes the DJ will get dismissed , the f/a's won't meet them in the middle! IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
US Airways, Inc., a Delaware Corporation,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, an individual, et al
and
US Airline Pilots Association,
Defendants
Case No. 2:10-CV-01570-PHX-ROS
USAPA’S REPLY
IN SUPPORT OF ITS
MOTION TO DISMISS
THE COMPLAINT PS light reading check it out! BTW the F/A's left the building, no urgency to negotiate common sense 202!MM

 

[BoeingBoy]

We will all retire in due time, in the same time frame we would with or without a higher paying contact. Your decision, or maybe not, should be to join us in our Scope in hope of better days, and our soon to follow almost complete exit from the property. You guys and gals could have traded some very short time gains for some very long term career prosperity.

Isn't that what East new hires were told in 88/89, 98/99, and again in 2007? That "everything will be wonderful in the future" didn't work out too well. What you're really offering is the Wimpy excuse - let us have the good things today and you can have whatever is left over when we're gone.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

If you consider the int'l division of usairways employed 609 pilots on the last EAST BID, not much flying! that's close to 30% of the whole WEST! MM!

But it is only about 20-25% of the east.

60% of those are F/O's

Your 767 captain still make less than our 320 captains.

BTW. All the west pilots work for the int'l division of the west.

 

[cleardirect]

This was answered in one of the latest legal briefs filed. The TA will be rewritten /amended legally, and the company will then have the protection they desire.

usapa has been incapable of negotiating a single thing with the company. How many sections of the contract are closed?

How makes you think that usapa would be able to renegotiate the T/A? The first thing the company will ask for is to get rid of the block hour mins.

Think before speaking.

 

[Reed Richards]

This company will not survive seperate ops. The east operation was a failure and everyone knows that as it was twice bankrupt before we got involved. We have lost much of what we were out west as a result of this merger so MERGED is where the company wants to go.

Now I posted last week an article where a compnay was asking the court to allow it to impose what it felt was a fair contract. Is that what you want to have happen once the courts tell LCC that it must honor the terms of the TA or risk being sued?? Do you want a company imposed contract?? You had best be thinking about that as a real possibility.

AWA320

Junior Bird Man....The east operation was almost 60 years old when we all met on a blind date gone bad. No BK for us prior to 2001 until airplanes flew into buildings. We are all victims and witnesses to what followed. We had one of our most profitable hubs completely shut down for a long time (DCA). Imagine if Las Vegas has simply shut down. Our payback was the "gift" of a government loan, which both of us eventually paid back.

Give me an example where the "Company" or "Government" has ever imposed a contract under the RLA, outside the end of a legal cooling off period. The only chance we ever, ever had of having anything imposed was when ALPA eventually decertified both our MEC's and replaced them with their goons. USAPA preempted that nightmare.

RR

 

[AWA320]

Your correct about 2 things they will drag it out and yes the DJ will get dismissed , the f/a's won't meet them in the middle! IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
US Airways, Inc., a Delaware Corporation,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, an individual, et al
and
US Airline Pilots Association,
Defendants
Case No. 2:10-CV-01570-PHX-ROS
USAPA’S REPLY
IN SUPPORT OF ITS
MOTION TO DISMISS
THE COMPLAINT PS light reading check it out! BTW the F/A's left the building, no urgency to negotiate common sense 202!MM

Thank you for posting usapa's motion to dismiss. its irrelevant as a dismissal doesnt get you to that end game but thanks all the same. I expect that management will deal with them once they have the answer to any one of the questions they are asking of the court. BTW this is where Seham falls off the boat. A DJ is nothing more than an ask of the courts what each parties responsibilities are so a dismissal is really a far reach but I cant fault the guy for trying as you pay him by the hour and not by the pleadings filed.

AWA320

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, over the last 5 years you have all made on average about 1K more a month than those of us on the East. It does indeed smart when you point that out...but please remember that when it comes time to ratify a contract. What if you actually got Nic in a tentative agreement , only to see it fail on a system wide vote? You won’t ever get that, but it is food for thought.

Separate ops indeed is the only path for our two groups. We will continue to suck hind t... with LOA 93, in the hopes that many will soon upgrade to Blockholder F/O, Reserve C/O, Blockholding C/O, and eventually Group I C/O and 330 C/O. Small raises indeed, when you consider the top of scale is only abound 160K. My family says bravo, take it if you can..beats Nic any day. My wife is young (not Sue Storm young!!!) and has a very good career going in real estate. Not everyone is so blessed. But even she "gets it." So glad she is working in Western PA, and not Southern AZ!

We will all retire in due time, in the same time frame we would with or without a higher paying contact. Your decision, or maybe not, should be to join us in our Scope in hope of better days, and our soon to follow almost complete exit from the property. You guys and gals could have traded some very short time gains for some very long term career prosperity. Too bad you have the likes of J. Mack and AWE320 carrying your flag! This could have worked out a lot better for us all if you had supported some very basic compromises to the NIC. Too late now.

Take care,

RR

Second time tonight.


I continue to ask but never get a response. We all know what you want from the west.

What were you willing to GIVE? A compromise means give and take. So far all we have ever seen from the east is TAKE. What would you GIVE?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The only chance we ever, ever had of having anything imposed was when ALPA eventually decertified both our MEC's and replaced them with their goons. USAPA preempted that nightmare.

You're forgetting the two bankruptcies...the judge (that's right, the government) definitely had the power to impose a contract and the only reason it wasn't done is that the pilots ratified the concessions first.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

It has been a few days since I posted some quotes from the PBGC case and no comments yet.

What, still waiting for the usapa spin machine to give you all talking points? Still think you are going to collect something? What are you getting hit for $500 a year?

7. Collection.

Even if there were a claim for misconduct against one or more former fiduciaries, USAPA presents absolutely no evidence on the likelihood of collection. USAPA never identifies the specific individuals or corporations that may be liable, and certainly provides no evidence of their ability to pay a judgment. Another aspect of the collection problem for USAPA is the statute of limitations, which Judge Robertson identified as one of the “threshold issues” for plaintiff.64 When pressed at oral argument, USAPA counsel dodged the issue:

THE COURT: And why, it’s already six, seven years since the plan went bust -- and seven years, you’re complaining about statute of limitations. What statute has not already run?

MR. BUTLER: Well, there are statutes that govern PBGC’s activity. I don’t know. But if there was fraud, if this was somehow hidden, maybe hidden, maybe there is a claim. I don’t know that, Your Honor. All I know is that time is passing, and -- Tr. at 46:4-11.

Given USAPA’s assertion that numerous “red flags” have been in “plain sight since the time the Plan was terminated, and have been continuously evident throughout the past 64 Dkt. # 20, Tr. of Mot. Hr’g (Mar. 25, 2010) (“Tr.”) at 3:9-12. seven years,”
USAPA Brief at 7, it is USAPA’s burden to answer Judge Robertson’s threshold question. USAPA must, at minimum, explain why the Plan’s potential claims are not already time-barred, and furnish at least some evidence that recovery of half a billion dollars is more than theoretically possible. USAPA has not done so.

It does not sound like Mr. Butler was real confident. A lot of if's and maybes. Imagine that a statute of limitations problem. Would that make this case over ripe?

 

[Reed Richards]

Second time tonight.


I continue to ask but never get a response. We all know what you want from the west.

What were you willing to GIVE? A compromise means give and take. So far all we have ever seen from the east is TAKE. What would you GIVE?

I was not at Wye. But what I am told is furlough protection out of seniority was already on the table from the East. That was a unilateral offer, never to even be countered.

All I want is DOH with conditions and restrictions. I want you all to continue to enjoy your attrition in PHX, and to be able to move East as clear in the USAPA proposal...which by way maybe even goes a little overboard in protecting PHX. But thats ok. The 25% safety valve is something you could have had a little more say in, had you not chosen to sent feces in the mail and very successfully execute a dues boycott for over a year, and intimidate pilots from serving on USAPA committees.

But I hear you. We will in fact never know what was even possible there. To be honest, I would guess even the East Three Wise Men at the Wye meeting had boundaries they could not cross. I really don't know.

But I am strong in my belief you all would have been better to capture our Scope and wait the 8 years for us all to leave. We are now at the halfway point in that exodus, only delayed by my least favorite law, retirement at age 65.

RR

 

[AWA320]

Junior Bird Man....The east operation was almost 60 years old when we all met on a blind date gone bad. No BK for us prior to 2001 until airplanes flew into buildings. We are all victims and witnesses to what followed. We had one of our most profitable hubs completely shut down for a long time (DCA). Imagine if Las Vegas has simply shut down. Our payback was the "gift" of a government loan, which both of us eventually paid back.

Give me an example where the "Company" or "Government" has ever imposed a contract under the RLA, outside the end of a legal cooling off period. The only chance we ever, ever had of having anything imposed was when ALPA eventually decertified both our MEC's and replaced them with their goons. USAPA preempted that nightmare.

RR

Ok you really need to sell this to someone who is not in the know! We got tossed in to the jackpot with usair because SWA and boeing 86'd our deal to buy ATA due to our ability to have a neg impact on their Chicago operation. USair was a second choice and had we merged with ATA you would be selling vacations to elderly tourists talking about how it used to be back when you were a pilot!

Every airline suffered in 2001 and every operation was shut down. Yes we got ATSB loans and we paid them back too. AAA got loans as well and they were paid back AFTER AWA MANAGEMENT TOOK OVER so lets not get it all twisted. Alpa never decertified any mec. It placed PHL in trustee ship with EAST PILOTS, removing that nut ball Eric Rowe and Dave Chab and rightly so too.

I said that a company was asking the courts to impose a contract not that it has been done. Keep in mind here that usapa is testing all new ground and as a result the court system is tired of them. ALl usapa has done is stall and nothing more. The fate of the east is sealed.

AWA320

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Isn't that what East new hires were told in 88/89, 98/99, and again in 2007? That "everything will be wonderful in the future" didn't work out too well. What you're really offering is the Wimpy excuse - let us have the good things today and you can have whatever is left over when we're gone.

Jim

Well that is correct JIM, you are left over and your gone, and look what theyv'e got, sounds like a deal to me! MM!

 

[Reed Richards]

You're forgetting the two bankruptcies...the judge (that's right, the government) definitely had the power to impose a contract and the only reason it wasn't done is that the pilots ratified the concessions first.

Jim

Yikes. Please give me one example where a judge as imposed a contract in BK under the RLA. Jim, I am not sure about this.

Really, I want to know. I don't know of an instance where that occurred. Just saying the concessions prevented it is not proof. Educate me.

RR