US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

My plotline goes more like this: after the TSA gets involved, seeing confidential flight crew information is compromised to a rogue LLC, the issue goes to deposition before a judge. Leonidas LLC is put on the stand, and asked how they got the information. Jacobs pleads the fifth. One captain, now married to a corporate insider is asked how he came to facilitate the transfer of confidential information, including FFDO pilots, to a third party in order to issue a propaganda mailer. Same pilot takes Fifth. Under further grilling from Lee Seham, armed with information obtained with a Federal Warrant, Capt. R%&^ss explodes a la Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men. Telling the Federal judge, Wake, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! He is led away to sherriff Joe to a tent in the back lot. This is how it will most likely go down.Ted Reed wraps it all up in a book, which becomes a movie. Saw7, the end of Leonidas.

Swan, you have to stop,I have never laughed so hard, I hope I can sleep tonight. You are by far the master of this board, we are getting calls from all over the boys are loving it. I bet even the westies, that hate us have to be laughing. Keep up the good work master.

 

[nic4us]

Somebodys' A$$ is going to be in a serious crack on this one, no doubt! The data -names and nicknames, addresses matched CATCREW to a T. It will be extremely easy to use the logon protocol and security to trap this rat. Wait until some poor guy in IT is asked to come clean on this one. He/she will get canned along with the ones that asked for it unless there was a good reason.

Um.. there is a good reason....

2500 disgruntled, self-aggrandizing, whiners, are harming the compay and its 35,000 employees, in their direct assualt of the West pilots, and their fools errand of attempting to overturn binding arbitration.

As far as usapa knows, AOL did not even send the mailer, it may have come straight from the company. Why don't you get those postal inspectors who are still searching for the alleged feces that most likely some east pilot mailed to usapa so they could start a RICO suit, to join forces with the TSA, the FBI, the CIA, the FAA, and corporate security, to all pull together and see if they can extricate Cleary's head from his rectum.

I heard the Department of Homeland Security was gonna help also, but Seham had a cow over the fact that Janet Napalitano's last job was "desert" Govenor.

The only people who are going to have their neck on the line is the usapa inmates, who's schizophrenic behavior will cause them to overreact and make a big deal out of nothing. But, hey, they are the same morons who wanted to play for termination stakes.

And let me get this straight, you use a system called CATCREW? Sounds like something Eartha Kitt would call her entourage before they get their tails kicked by Adam West and Burt Ward, KAAPPOOWW.

 

[N924PS]

Read WIKIPEDIA for Air Cal, AA " transfered them to Reno Air " in the mid 90's and then purchased Reno Air in 1999?

FYI:

Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous Internet volunteers who write without pay. Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles (except in certain cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism). Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or with their real identity, if they choose.

Or in other words, consider the source.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Therefore, I conclude that the ONLY reason that DOH was used for the pre 1984 pilots (if true) was because that somehow gave the AA pilots a windfall.

,snip.

I still believe that the ONLY consistent way to fairly combine labor groups is some sort of DOH/LOS formula. Nothing else works.

So DOH gave the AA pilots a windfall , and was thus unfair to the AirCal pilots but DOH/LOS is the only fair way. So we've got DOH being unfair when one of the merger partners has been around longer than the other (like the West pilots maintain in this merger) but it's the only fair way. Why pick one side when you can argue both - when someone else did it it was patently unfair but when the East pilots want to do it it's the only fair way. Did you ever stop to think that McCaskill-Bond was meant to keep something like the East wants to do from happening?

Jim

 

[Al Legheny]

I think you are very wrong about this.

NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD
REPRESENTATION MANUAL
Revised Text Effective ---- September 17, 2010

2.0 COMMENCING THE INVESTIGATION


2.4 List of Potential Eligible Voters and Signature Samples
The carrier must serve one (1) copy of a system-wide alphabetized list of potential eligible voters on the Investigator and serve one (1) copy on each participant’s representative. Even if a participant is contesting single transportation status (see Section 19.0), they are required to produce a list in conformity with the section. The NMB requires the carrier to provide a copy of the alphabetized list in Microsoft Excel format to the NMB only. The carrier should send a separate alphabetized list in PDF to each of the participants.

The list of potential eligible voters must include all individuals in the craft or class with an employee-employer relationship as of the cut-off date. The list must identify each employee’s full name, the job title, and the duty station or location.
The carrier must also provide the NMB with one (1) hard copy of legible, alphabetized signature samples for each employee on the list. Examples of acceptable signature samples include tax-withholding forms and employment and insurance applications. The alphabetized signature samples must be in the same order as the names on the list of potential eligible voters.

 

[767jetz]

So it will pretty much go down like this.

usapa to company-"where did AOL get the mailing list from"
company to usapa-"we don't know go ask them"
usapa to company-"we think you gave it to them, because John only goes by Jack at work, and Mike only uses chiefusapascumbag@uslappy..org for company e-mail"
company to usapa-"well Sherlock we just don't care, discussion over"

usapa to AOL-"where did you get the mailing list from"
AOL to usapa-"uhm...doesn't usapa have a list? I mean...you sent all those unsolicited applications and section 29 letters and such"
usapa to AOL-"of course we have a list, where did you get yours?"
AOL to usapa-"we don't have a mailing list that we are willing to share with you, and what you are asking for is proprietary information of a private corporation, discussion over."

usapa to USAToday-"yeah, we would like to take out a full page ad, calling attention to just how stupid we are."
USAToday to usapa-"Let me guess, momma put you in the corner again, and you want to tell the world you are idiots, okay, that will be $150,000?"

That was classic!

 

[nic4us]

I'm not aware of a single merger involving AA where the AA pilots didn't seriously screw their merger partners. Therefore, I conclude that the ONLY reason that DOH was used for the pre 1984 pilots (if true) was because that somehow gave the AA pilots a windfall. In fact, it was the heinous way they treated the TWA pilots that resulted in the McCaskill-Bond law. The only travesty is that groups in the same union are not protected by it. ALPA won that one.

I still believe that the ONLY consistent way to fairly combine labor groups is some sort of DOH/LOS formula. Nothing else works.

Actually, you are wrong again.

The McCaskill-Bond legislation was introduced as a direct result of the treatment of, and the lobbying from, the TWA flight attendants, not the pilots.

BTW, you are wrong about the Nic as well. Still the only combined seniority list at LCC, and very much alive, and awaiting a joint contract. Now DOH is definitely DOA.

Also, DOH does not work. No method works. Every pilot integration ends with one side saying it got screwed, no matter what method is used. The problem we face is who gets to tell the one side they are screwed? In our case the author of the final and binding award gets to, because if usapa does it, DFR! Get it yet? The 9th warned usapa, and they still do not get it.

 

[767jetz]

Nothing else works.

Sssshhhhhh! Don't tell the NW/DL pilots.

They may come apart at the seams if they knew that the non-DOH integration they are actually happy with, that left them within 3% of the relative place they were before, actually didn't work because oldiebutgoody says so.

It must burn your collective "behinds" that by next year, the two biggest airlines in the world will have used a slotting integration to merge their pilot's seniority lists, keeping everyone relatively happy, and getting huge raises and contract improvements to boot, while you are stuck on the sidelines and STILL can't get your "stuff" together. Enjoy those LOA93 pay rates. Pretty soon most major airline f/o's will be making more than your A320 captains. Way to go USAPA! :blink:

PS. I think you have some corn stuck in your teeth. You may want to grab a toothpick.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Read WIKIPEDIA for Air Cal, AA " transfered them to Reno Air " in the mid 90's and then purchased Reno Air in 1999?

It doesn't say "transfered them...", it talks about routes, facilities, etc. From a LA Times article in April 1987 (a little over 2 months prior to the merger):

"American Airlines officials said at Tuesday's press conference that all of AirCal's 456 pilots, 506 flight attendants and 450 reservation agents will be offered comparable jobs at equivalent or better pay by American Airlines."

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

Somebodys' A$$ is going to be in a serious crack on this one, no doubt! The data -names and nicknames, addresses matched CATCREW to a T. It will be extremely easy to use the logon protocol and security to trap this rat. Wait until some poor guy in IT is asked to come clean on this one. He/she will get canned along with the ones that asked for it unless there was a good reason.

More empty threats from the delusional toothless cowards. "No Doubt!!!!"

Come back if/when you manage to get off of food stamps....or just score a $2.00 crew meal on a trans con. You whiners think your threats matter? You guys couldn't force your will upon a stray dog! The only thing USAPA and the cheerleaders have done is inflict more damage upon themselves than any other entity in the History of commercial aviation...most of you apparently got the careers you deserve.

Pay: embarrassing
Retirement: forfeited
work rules: Worse than Mesa

Yep. You all are sure a force to be reckoned with!!

Nobody...and I literally mean NOBODY is scared of USAPA or their angry little tough talking coward minions.

 

[jetjok1]

Pretty sure its 12 or 18 months.

18months

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So DOH gave the AA pilots a windfall , and was thus unfair to the AirCal pilots but DOH/LOS is the only fair way. So we've got DOH being unfair when one of the merger partners has been around longer than the other (like the West pilots maintain in this merger) but it's the only fair way. Why pick one side when you can argue both - when someone else did it it was patently unfair but when the East pilots want to do it it's the only fair way. Did you ever stop to think that McCaskill-Bond was meant to keep something like the East wants to do from happening?

Jim

Yup. They used DOH to screw part of the list, then slotting to screw the rest. Knowing how AA has always put mergers together, that's the conclusion I would draw.

If pilots were like EVERY other group, they should have known going into the merger that their DOH/LOS was what they were going to get, not a day more or less, period. Some would have done better; some worse, but it would have gone together in a day.

I'm not convinced that the recent NWA/DL deal is over yet. I hear a lot of unhappy folks are making noise about ditching ALPA, even communicating with some folks here that have actually done it for advice. Plus, their groups had much more compatible lists, that is, hire dates, etc. were more closely aligned, making the windfall factor much less.

No, that's NOT what M-B was meant to prevent. More like the other way around.

 

[Heretic]

I would like to pose to both sides a hypothetical question--kind of a what if, and would appreciate your honest thoughts on the subject.

WHAT IF there were no unions for the pilots--if they were all at will employees? How do you guys think the integration would go? I realize it may not be entirely relevant since you are most certainly dealing with unions, but I'd be interested to know what you think--on both sides.

That said, for what it's worth, I do hope you can come to some sort of agreement in the not too distant future which leaves everyone poised to move forward.

My BEST to you all.....

Great Question Art,
When a pilot chooses their career path, they choose one of the obvious two paths. Unions defend a highly trained and specifically trained group of professionals. In this instance, airline pilots. Friends of mine work in the corporate field as pilots. Some do well. Some do not. Sound familiar?
This is one profession that would benefit the corporate view tremendously by promoting kiss asses. It would also result in a vast detriment regarding safety and accident statistics.
I would hope that you or others reading this do not need a further explanation. "Yes Sir! Whatever You say Sir!" Does that fare as an example? Is that the scenario that you feel comfortable with when flying with your family? It really is that simple. We fight this pressure on a daily basis at your, and our behest.
Thank You for your support!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yup. They used DOH to screw part of the list

So the "gold standard" of "fairness" demanded by USAPA can be used to screw the other side. Thanks for clearing that up.

Jiim

 

[luvn737s]

NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD
REPRESENTATION MANUAL
Revised Text Effective ---- September 17, 2010

2.0 COMMENCING THE INVESTIGATION


2.4 List of Potential Eligible Voters and Signature Samples
The carrier must serve one (1) copy of a system-wide alphabetized list of potential eligible voters on the Investigator and serve one (1) copy on each participant’s representative. Even if a participant is contesting single transportation status (see Section 19.0), they are required to produce a list in conformity with the section. The NMB requires the carrier to provide a copy of the alphabetized list in Microsoft Excel format to the NMB only. The carrier should send a separate alphabetized list in PDF to each of the participants.

The list of potential eligible voters must include all individuals in the craft or class with an employee-employer relationship as of the cut-off date. The list must identify each employee’s full name, the job title, and the duty station or location. The carrier must also provide the NMB with one (1) hard copy of legible, alphabetized signature samples for each employee on the list. Examples of acceptable signature samples include tax-withholding forms and employment and insurance applications. The alphabetized signature samples must be in the same order as the names on the list of potential eligible voters.

Thanks for proving me correct, Al. No union is entitled to anything more than the equivalent of Name rank and serial number. How USAPA got all the west pilot's private information during their threat and intimidation campaign is something probably worth investigating too.