US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Good Post Driver, you nailed it!!!!!

What he nailed was restating the misconception that Management doesn’t want a contract and that they are the only reason for the five-year delay in getting to a JCBA. The truth is that they do want a new pilot contract and have already offered $120M annually to get it. That may not be the winning number, but are you really suggesting that if USAPA agreed to use the NIC and to accept the Kirby proposal that Management would back away from that offer? If Management would accept the NIC/Kirby then Driver’s post lacks veracity as the only real impediment to a JCBA at the $100M+ level is USAPA’s stated intention to violate the TA and use another seniority system. As always, every one of these problems and issues can be attributed to USAPA being incompetent, insolent, disingenuous, and generally bringing spit wads to arm themselves for battle with a well fortified “enemy”.

 

[cleardirect]

What in the world are you talking about? Since the merger, ALL of the furloughees came back, plus some new hires. Now LCC is recalling/hiring AGAIN. Once those guys were recalled, they became entitled to EVERYTHING their seniority entitled them to. They are not painted with some kind of "scarlet letter" that makes them furlough fodder every time LCC has one into perpetuity.

DOH/LOS + C&Rs. It's the only FAIR AND LEGAL way.

BY the way, the cryin' ain't over at CAL/UAL either. Not for a long shot.

SINCE the merger, that would be POST merger career expectations. The usapa C&B talk about PRE-merger career expectations. There were 1700 PRE -merger furloughed east pilots. If you guys say you want to keep what you had. Keep those.

So in your opinion unless it is DOH/LOS is it not fair or legal.

Was Trump/Empire a legal list? Was AA/TWA a legal list? DAL/NWA did not go DOH/LOS is that in your opinion an illegal list?

Is the MB law illegal? Because the new MB law requires arbitration using AM. AM does not say that the list will be DOH/LOS. Please point to anything other than your OPINION that make a integrated list that is not DOH/LOS illegal.

Spouting demands and absolutes does not make it so. Saying that the Nic is dead does not make it so. The company does not think that it is dead. You know the other side of the negotitations.

 

[No Land Green]

What he nailed was restating the misconception that Management doesn’t want a contract and that they are the only reason for the five-year delay in getting to a JCBA. The truth is that they do want a new pilot contract and have already offered $120M annually to get it. That may not be the winning number, but are you really suggesting that if USAPA agreed to use the NIC and to accept the Kirby proposal that Management would back away from that offer? If Management would accept the NIC/Kirby then Driver’s post lacks veracity as the only real impediment to a JCBA at the $100M+ level is USAPA’s stated intention to violate the TA and use another seniority system. As always, every one of these problems and issues can be attributed to USAPA being incompetent, insolent, disingenuous, and generally bringing spit wads to arm themselves for battle with a well fortified “enemy”.

Yes, management may very well have backed away. Driver and many others are looking at the "Big Picture". There is more to this than just accepting anything just to get your NIC number solidified in cement........

 

[cleardirect]

You are not listening. The company does not want a contract. You got that? Listen to the crew news when DP says we are a "long way" from a contract as opposed to the September Crew News where we are " months away". The company has NO INTENTION of settling those outstanding sections because it commits them to spending money. They will ride this sled as long as possible. You make it sound like they are eager to spend over $100 million. Are you kidding???????

I am NOT in the USAPA cheering section, but I am a realist. It doesn't matter who the union is, USAPA OR ALPA. The company is stalling. They knew they would be pressed to negotiate after the 9th ruling, so they file this suit and set a whole new round of litigation in place to stop a contract talks cold. It worked.

Driver <_<

So you think that the company does not want a contract. I will assume that for debate you think that usapa does. But we are not getting anywhere near a contract and usapa cannot manage to even get the easy sections does. That means that the company is in complete control of the situation and usapa is POWERLESS. A weak entity that will accept anything the company tells the union.

As you just admitted the company is in control. You say that the company does not want to move forward. Then explain how the heck does you and all of the east pilot followers of the Cleary think that the company that will not negotiate even simple sections is going to then just roll over and accept whatever the union puts on the table for seniority?

We can all agree that we want more money and better schedules. That usapa has not even touched. But the most contentious and legally troubling section 22 you guys think that the company will accept without question. REALLY!! You guys cannot be that thick.

You all do remember the 5 requirements that the company placed on the integrated seniority list? The BS C&R that the east designed does not comply with those 5 items. It will be expensive for the company to operate and to restrictive.

You admitted the company is in charge of the contract. Usapa has no leverage. If the company even thought that they wanted to use DOH why would they file the DJ? NO they are looking for cover. Either from the court telling them they have to use Nicoalu or the court dismissing the case and the company saying that they did not get the cover they need.

Last thing. If usapa is so confident that the company will accept DOH. Than why not get to that section and finish it? Get it out of the way and move on. According to usapa it is a no cost item for the company they don't care what seniority list the company uses. That should be a 5 minute conversation right. Present the DOH at the next NMB session.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yes, management may very well have backed away. Driver and many others are looking at the "Big Picture". There is more to this than just accepting anything just to get your NIC number solidified in cement........

Didn't Management testify in federal court that the Kirby proposal was still a valid offer? I don't believe you, but if what you say is true then the effect USAPA is having is to negotiate the proposed pay increase down rather up from just over a year ago? What exactly did USAPA propose to get DOH "solidified in cement"? Sounds, about right for USAPA - the "dancing with myself" misfits that they are.

 

[Black Swan]

Didn't Management testify in federal court that the Kirby proposal was still a valid offer? I don't believe you, but if what you say is true then the effect USAPA is having is to negotiate the proposed pay increase down rather up from just over a year ago? What exactly did USAPA propose to get DOH "solidified in cement"? Sounds, about right for USAPA - the "dancing with myself" misfits that they are.

Calloway, we on the East are just hanging out waiting for the LOA 93 to be ruled on. If we lose, then we move on. If we win? then we just take it and there is absolutely no pressure anymore to do anything. There is no rush here to do anything.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Driver and many others are looking at the "Big Picture".

If by "big picture" you mean whatever makes USAPA is right and everyone else wrong. Just look at the selective quoting of Parker that goes on around here - he "doesn't care what the seniority list is" is presented as irrefutable proof that DOH will prevail but "we want a single contract" is ignored or dismissed as spin.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

Didn't Management testify in federal court that the Kirby proposal was still a valid offer? I don't believe you, but if what you say is true then the effect USAPA is having is to negotiate the proposed pay increase down rather up from just over a year ago? What exactly did USAPA propose to get DOH "solidified in cement"? Sounds, about right for USAPA - the "dancing with myself" misfits that they are.

Do you ever watch the Crew News Videos? "Listen to what they say and watch what they do".

Even if Kirby testified in Federal Court, that was in effect for that day, so he wasn't lying. These guys change their tune daily. Sit back, relax and look at the "Big Picture". Get off the "gotta have my NIC Number NOW" desire. If you are going to get it, you will. If you are not, you won't.

No matter where I wind up on the list, I want a good contract, not some piece of garbage only to get worse in the next downturn.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If we win? then we just take it and there is absolutely no pressure anymore to do anything.

Since nearly every East poster claims to be financially independent, why even worry about LOA 93 or the Nic. Neither will affect your liifestyle according to missfit.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

If by "big picture" you mean whatever makes USAPA is right and everyone else wrong. Just look at the selective quoting of Parker that goes on around here - he "doesn't care what the seniority list is" is presented as irrefutable proof that DOH will prevail but "we want a single contract" is ignored or dismissed as spin.

Jim

Management will take this out to the "stroke of midnight" no matter who is the CBA. I've been around long enough to figure that one out. That is the "Big Picture". With the Eternal Non-Unity created by ALPA/NIC, this is going to take a long time.

Some one on this Board from the West said "unity first, then..." So we all know "unity" will never happen here............

 

[No Land Green]

Since nearly every East poster claims to be financially independent, why even worry about LOA 93 or the Nic. Neither will affect your liifestyle according to missfit.

Jim

I'm not worried about either outcome. Not directed at you Jim, but if you work in this industry and haven't gotten your financial house of cards in order, well shame on you..............

 

[767jetz]

You make it sound like they are eager to spend over $100 million. Are you kidding???????

Unless there is some corporate transaction they are hoping to be a part of in a year or two. Then they will gladly spend the $100 Million in order to cash in on MUCH more money down the line.

Don't you think they look over everyone else's shoulder to see what they are doing and what works. UA and CO were days away from a merger when CO walked away because they didn't like the financial metrics, and they saw the economy deteriorating and fuel prices spiking. UA cleaned up their balance sheet, parked airplanes, are #1 in on time performance, the economy rebounds (air travel at least), and fuel prices come down and stabilize. Voila! Merger done.

Parker knows that now is the time to clean up the mess and start getting dressed for the next dance. DO you think anyone will touch US until the HP/US merger is complete? I agree that he's not in a rush to spend money. That is until it benefits him to do so. He's not going to come out and say, "OK, that's enough. Time to merge. Everyone play nice now." He will just decide one day that it's time to move forward and that will be that.

 

[767jetz]

Calloway, we on the East are just hanging out waiting for the LOA 93 to be ruled on. If we lose, then we move on. If we win? then we just take it and there is absolutely no pressure anymore to do anything. There is no rush here to do anything.

And that summarizes the real intent of USAPA. It is the one believable and honest thing you have said. It proves that the sham of wanting to get a contract, wanting to do what's "fair," wanting to stop the delay, wanting to represent all US Airways pilots is simply a smoke screen.

The only thing USAPA wants is money and job security for east pilots who really had very little of either when the merger happened. If it means doing at the expense of someone else, so be it.

Luckily, USAPA is along for the ride and will not ultimately be successful. Eventually this will end with the Nic implemented. Could be 6 months. Could be years. The east pilots should only pray that damages don't come their way when the dust settles.

 

[Black Swan]

Since nearly every East poster claims to be financially independent, why even worry about LOA 93 or the Nic. Neither will affect your liifestyle according to missfit.

Jim

Oh Jim, this is a really big issue. First, the company will be severely pissed if they lose it. Secondly, it has HUGE implications for the west if the east prevails. Why would the east feel any pressure if the rates went to LOA 84 rates? They would not. This would be a game changer for the west and their plans. It reverses the pay disparity, and you would see the west come to terms with the Nic(or lack of it) immediately This is why we are hoping it goes our way. Not saying it will, but if it does, it has HUGE import.

 

[Black Swan]

And that summarizes the real intent of USAPA. It is the one believable and honest thing you have said. It proves that the sham of wanting to get a contract, wanting to do what's "fair," wanting to stop the delay, wanting to represent all US Airways pilots is simply a smoke screen.

The only thing USAPA wants is money and job security for east pilots who really had very little of either when the merger happened. If it means doing at the expense of someone else, so be it.

Luckily, USAPA is along for the ride and will not ultimately be successful. Eventually this will end with the Nic implemented. Could be 6 months. Could be years. The east pilots should only pray that damages don't come their way when the dust settles.

And you are again, dead wrong. LOA 93 and its' expiration date were negotiated LONG before the West and AWA was even an issue. Long before USAPA was even around. So how do you even link the two? Of course you are a total expert on all issues with our contract, aren t you. All we want in the East is the LOA expiration date enforced and pay to go to LOA 84. That is it, that is all. Had nothing to do with the west in its' inception, and you are totally incorrect, as usual. 🙂 Give us the pay we negotiated, long ago, and we are fine. Has nothing to do with the West. Just because they were too stupid to address the pay parity issue is not our fault. They built the gun, loaded it. It might now be used against them. They need to take responsibility for their oversights. If you chose to enter into an agreement with no pay parity, then suffer the consequences. It is that simple.