US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

It's not that one ruling matters more per se - the two bodies operate within completely different arenas. Within the arena of each, they are both the final word on disagreements in opinion. In fact, SCOTUS can be over-ruled by Congress and the President if they pass a law over-ruling SCOTUS's decision. There is no higher authority than the EB as far as interpreting the C&BL's (as long as they're within legal and DFR boundaries).



No. Like someone fleeing to another country to escape a SCOTUS ruling against them, you've fled to another union to escape the EB's ruling. So the argument now centers on USAPA's ability or inability to disregard the arbitrator's decision and substitute it's own without being in violation of it's DFR duty. I've seen nothing to indicate that USAPA is arguing that the Nic doesn't comply with ALPA merger policy so would assume that even USAPA sees the futility of that.

Jim

Jim,you are a trip.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No rebuttal, huh...

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

Where did I say the senior guys were controlling this "trainwreck"? What I asked is why do you think they aren't doing everything humanly possible to stop it since a DOH list doesn't do anything for them and they are losing a lot of money fighting for it. You guys have to be sratching your heads over this, hence the mailing.

If you are going to quote me why don't you try to get it right?

Your question is...like many USAPA arguments a non sequitur. Who know what "senior" pilots are doing. USAPA's communications regime has a death grip on every letter that dribbles out of it. The West is entirely censored...Sewer with a lisp refuses....time and again, to allow the duly elected PHX reps from freely communicating with the constituents, (which is illegal of course).

There very well might be a vast number of senior pilots calling HQ every single day demanding they drop the DOH pipe dream and get to negotiating honestly, and in earnest for a realistic contract. You're obviously implying that doesn't happen...of course you have no way to know that. That info would be the very LAST thing USAPA would allow to be reported. Until there is a contract to vote on...nobody knows anything.

Let me ask you another question. Instead of trying to guess and infer what the pilot group is thinking, why doesn't USAPA hire the wilson polling folks to do a real survey of the pilot group, not some stupid, contrived, "safety" survey that obviously has an ulterior motive and nothing to do with actual safety. When my airline is in negotiations I receive at least two calls from the Wilson center. They ask very specific questions to gauge what the pilot group actually wants. In stark Contrast to a real Labor Union. USAPA is only concerned with what the Angry Fo's want. All members of the NAC were furloughed when this merger was announced BTW. Think they're a little skewed or otherwise biased? How much polling has USAPA conducted regarding the expectations of the pilot group? None. Why?

WHY? WHY? WHY? won't USAPA lift a single finger to find out what the ENTIRE pilot group wants? Is it because they'd have to include the WEST in that survey? Perhaps USAPA is certain that a survey would provide conclusive, hard evidence of just how little support they actually have.

USAPA is scared of something. It's obvious. There is NO reason not to conduct formal scientific polling. Every single pilot group in this country polls their pilots. Not your Dear Leader. He knows what's best for everyone.

 

[Metroyet]

Jim,you are a trip.

What's the matter? Indisputable Facts too tough to deal with?

 

[AvgJoe]

In this case, yes - the Executive Board has the exclusive right to interpret ALPA's Constitution and Bylaws (within legal and DFR bounds, of course). The EB's decision is final and over-rules mere opinion.



You may consider it valid but that's an opinion that's been shot down. As someone likes to say, you were spanked.

Jim

So, to use your logic Jim, if you disagreed with the chief pilot on a safety issue, you would be morally obligated to go with his opinion because he is in a position of authority?
I disagree.

 

[Pi brat]

No rebuttal, huh...

Jim

No, because every so often I stop and realize we will argue until we a blue in the face and you can't admit you are wrong, and you are wrong about this, in my OPINION, of course.

 

[Pi brat]

What's the matter? Indisputable Facts too tough to deal with?

No, I think I dealt with them pretty well, some are to blind to see. How about my facts, they too tough for you to deal with?

 

[Pi brat]

When my airline is in negotiations I receive at least two calls from the Wilson center.

Are you not a US pilot, and if not why are you reading OUR safety survey? That survey was to highlight what US pilots think about the safety culture at the airline, whatever you think it was.

What is your connection to US if you don't work for us-tell the truth.

 

[cleardirect]

Really professor? What else is a merger? What else do I believe?

Actually for all those years that I pulled gear for PS pilots I enjoyed most of them, I realized their bases were taken away, and most importantly.......................THEY WERE HIRED BEFORE I WAS! I'd just like to have the seat when they leave, to get off reserve, and maybe have a summer vacation. After 24 years of waiting my turn I don't think that it is to much to ask that those on the west wait their turn for the east seats.

So how did you feel when the PS pilots came in in front of you because of DOH, since you are a relative position guy.

So there it is finally. Admitting that after 24 years still on reserve and still can't hold a summer vacation for the lowest pay in the industry. That sounds like a pretty lousy carreer choice to me. So you want the west to help you make up for that. But by DOH you would have all of that but by Nicolau you would have what you brought merger. That is what you guys say you want right. Keep what you had.

Now which one of those lists would be a windfall?

After 24 years you are still on reserve. How is that not a poor career at a failing airline and not how you east guys portray it as just a bad day on the date of the merger?

Look at any other airline in the country and ask a guy that has 24 years what he bids or if he can hold the summer off. No the east wants it all and you want it from the west.

 

[N924PS]

So, just to clear things up, you were on a bae then a 737. The bae was parked and the 737 was taken from East for you to fly. You went from a commuter to a jet

got a 100% pay raise. So approx. 5 f/o's didn't get to upgrade from the East..... I only wish AA had never found out about AirCal.

The last time I saw one, I believe the BAE146 had four ALF502 JET engines.

Did you consider the BAC111 and the F28 to be commuters?

A BAC111 Captain in 1989 made more than I do today for flying the A320. Hardly commuter pay.

I wish AA had gotten PSA too. I'd be a B777 Captain in LAX. And still have my DB pension too. And I could drive to work.

Such is life.

I'm so flattered you and PI are so interested in my career path. Really, it has no bearing whatsoever on the issue at hand.

 

[Pi brat]

So there it is finally. Admitting that after 24 years still on reserve and still can't hold a summer vacation for the lowest pay in the industry. That sounds like a pretty lousy carreer choice to me. So you want the west to help you make up for that. But by DOH you would have all of that but by Nicolau you would have what you brought merger. That is what you guys say you want right. Keep what you had.

Now which one of those lists would be a windfall?

After 24 years you are still on reserve. How is that not a poor career at a failing airline and not how you east guys portray it as just a bad day on the date of the merger?

Look at any other airline in the country and ask a guy that has 24 years what he bids or if he can hold the summer off. No the east wants it all and you want it from the west.

Just refuse to comprehend, don't you? There is no finally there it is, it's what we have been saying all along. We have been waiting for years and don't want people coming in front of us. What I brought would finally get me to summer off and off reserve as east pilots leave. I don't need any west pilots to leave to get that. I want nothing with the west. I just don't want a bunch of guys coming in on top of me and delaying it even more! :angry:

Both have potential windfalls, Nic has no C&Rs, USAPA at least has some.

I made a great career choice to go to Piedmont Airlines. You would never know, so don't preach to me. A guy just a little junior to me chose to leave US and go to some outfit called America West. He is now furloughed, and I'm a captain and even more senior to him. Who made the better career choice. Tell ya what, lets get together in a couple decades, or whenever you retire, compare lifetime earning and quality of life and see who made the better career choices. How's that sound?

 

[Pi brat]

I'm so flattered you and PI are so interested in my career path. Really, it has no bearing whatsoever on the issue at hand.

I couldn't care less about your career path. What I care about is someone taking the best of what we had for years while we watched your back and then thinking it is okay to let a bunch of west angry F/Os come over here and take your seat when you are gone. How about that Empire assumption you made, care to retract that, or just ignoring it?

 

[cleardirect]

Just refuse to comprehend, don't you? There is no finally there it is, it's what we have been saying all along. We have been waiting for years and don't want people coming in front of us. What I brought would finally get me to summer off and off reserve as east pilots leave. I don't need any west pilots to leave to get that. I want nothing with the west. I just don't want a bunch of guys coming in on top of me and delaying it even more! :angry:

Both have potential windfalls, Nic has no C&Rs, USAPA at least has some.

I made a great career choice to go to Piedmont Airlines. You would never know, so don't preach to me. A guy just a little junior to me chose to leave US and go to some outfit called America West. He is now furloughed, and I'm a captain and even more senior to him. Who made the better career choice. Tell ya what, lets get together in a couple decades, or whenever you retire, compare lifetime earning and quality of life and see who made the better career choices. How's that sound?

You do know that there was a MERGER right? You do know that during a MERGER there is an integration of the seniority lists. That means that the two list get BLENDED. If you were so concerned about someone being senior to you than I guess you guys should have done everything that you could to STOP the merger like Delta did. Then you could have kept everything that you had. Like 1700 furloughs, 24 year reserves and no summer vacation. But funny I never heard one single word from any east pilot to stop the merger and save US Airways. Parker's words US Airways would have liquidated without the merger.

Your choice liquidate or accept pilots being senior to you. But now that the danger of going out of business is over now you want it all. That is to bad but the person that we chose to decide how to MERGE the lists did not agree with your opinion that no one should be senior to you.

As far as career earnings. what is it? Is it more important to make money or to steal the upgrade. We keep saying accept the Nicolau and get a better contract for more money. Than you guys say it is not about the money. Pick an argument and stick with it will you guys.

Maybe you think that in the next merger no one should be senior to you there either. Where do you guy find your reality?

 

[BoeingBoy]

So, to use your logic Jim, if you disagreed with the chief pilot on a safety issue, you would be morally obligated to go with his opinion because he is in a position of authority? I disagree.

Two problems with your attempt at an analogy. First, the chief pilot isn't the ultimate arbiter on safety matters - there's the airplane manufacturer, FAA, and various levels of executives over him. Second, the FAA says that the captain has ultimate authority over the operation of the aircraft - he/she may have to explain their actions/decisions after the fact but that's different.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You do know that there was a MERGER right? You do know that during a MERGER there is an integration of the seniority lists. That means that the two list get BLENDED. If you were so concerned about someone being sneior to you than I guess you guys should have done everything that you could to STOP the merger like Delta did. Then you could have kept everything that you had. Like 1700 furloughs, 24 year reserves and no summer vacation. But funny I never heard one single word from any east pilot to stop the merger and save US Airways. Parker's words USD Airways would have liquidated without the merger.

Your choice liquidate or accept onther pilots being senior to you. But now that the danger of going out of business now you want it all. That is to bad but the person that we chose to decide how to MERGE the lists did not agree with your opinion that no one should be senior to you.

As far as career earnings. what is it? Is it more important to make money or to steal the upgrade. We keep saying accept the Nicolau and get a better contract for more money. Than you guys say it is not about the money. Pick an argument and stick with it will you guys.

Maybe you think that in the next merger no one should be senior to you there either. Where do you guy find your reality?

Let's distill this rambling to one thing, okay? You show me where I have said that I don't want any former America West pilot senior to me. You you guys make stuff up and put words in people's mouths astounds me.