US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

You have to understand this is in stone here.

It very well may be. We all have to pick our battles. As with every other contractual thing, it will probably have to be paid for with something else of value. There is only so much pie to go around. I was only contending the notion that there are no other options, since that's the way the east has always done it. It's this blind resistance to change at all cost, or seeing things only as the "east way" and the wrong way, that rubs people the wrong way.

By all means, if PBS is the hill you choose to stand or die on, that is your choice.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well said! And slavery is also tacitly tolerated, if not condoned, in the bible.

That’s because slavery in and of itself isn’t a moral issue. How one comes to be in possession of slaves and how one treats a slave is where the moral code comes into play, and the Bible has much to say about this. In ancient times many slaves voluntarily went into slavery to avoid starvation or to get a roof over their heads. Others were compelled to become slaves because they had committed a crime and couldn’t pay the penalty. Since there were no prisons to incarcerate them, becoming a slave to the person they owed the debt to was the prescribed punishment. In America, this was not the case and there was simply no moral justification for how slaves were acquired or treated. Those who did so and tried to justify their actions by misinterpreting the moral code were just as out of step with societal norms as those who violate contracts and then try to offer some lame justification for doing so.

 

[767jetz]

My guess is they don't feel the need to.

That would be their preferred excuse. The truth is more likely that they don't want or care to know.

With such a split in the opinions of the pilots that the union has a legal responsibility to represent, regardless of whether they feel they need to or not, it would be simple and inexpensive insurance to put rumors and speculation to rest, and cover their backs when asked to explain their actions. (That is, if they are confident that the outcome would be as they claim it would.)

 

[Metroyet]

Here is some TRUE religion for you golfer. The fact that some arbitrator put a guy never furloughed, Monda, with 17 yrs. behind new hires is NEVER going to fly. If you call that deal honorable, it is honorable only for your guys. It is not going to fly on our side. This is why you can't get the senior guys to buy off on the pretty Leonidas mailer. The longer you wait without compromise with your Nic, the more you hang out there like a nice fat target. The clarification is going to take the wind completely out of your sails very shortly.

Any blame you want to assign to Nicalau is totally misplaced. Blame your merger committee. Geez, they were flat out warned by Nic. that their DOH scheme wasn't going to fly...but in typical eastie arrogance, blind with entitlement and delusions of superiority, declined to heed the warning and stuck to their irrational guns. Too bad...so Sad. If another 9-11 style furlough hits Every Eastie that didn't have a job (like you) will move to phoenix and replace 85% of the former America West pilots. The vast majority of whom have much greater LOS that the 1500 or so 99/00 hires who worked for all of two years to then be furloughed for 6. You think you're going to get away with that? After Binding Arbitration? After a Jury conviction? Still confused by the TA language? You actually believe you're entitled to steal the jobs of an entire unrelated airlines pilot group? You think the Law is on your side with that scheme? Why? Because you CHOSE not to leave what was always an obviously struggling airline? Whose fault is that?


You guys have nothing to stand on. It's over. LOA93 forever. USAPA is an abomination. Immoral and unethical to the core. They declared all out War on the west and have held every pilot hostage until they get their "list of demands" satisfied. USAPA won't poll the pilots like a real union because they know they're doomed. They just don't want to face that reality. I guess I can't blame Cleary, Bradford, Sewer, King....I wouldn't want my name so closely connected to what has been the most epic union failure in the History of the industry....having caused the infliction of so much financial damage to all pilots and their families that it's forever unrecoverable. Those names will go down in history along side the likes of Lorenzo. There's no difference.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Here is some TRUE religion for you golfer. The fact that some arbitrator put a guy never furloughed, Monda, with 17 yrs. behind new hires is NEVER going to fly. If you call that deal honorable, it is honorable only for your guys. It is not going to fly on our side. This is why you can't get the senior guys to buy off on the pretty Leonidas mailer. The longer you wait without compromise with your Nic, the more you hang out there like a nice fat target. The clarification is going to take the wind completely out of your sails very shortly.

Were the east pilots represented by an agent? Yes
Did that agent legally represent the east pilots? Yes
Did that agent consent to a Transition Agreement that included a process for seniority integration? Yes
Was that process followed? Yes
Did that process call for and result in Binding Arbitration? Yes
Did both pilot groups have an opportunity to strike their least preferred arbitrators? Yes
Did the arbitrator have the full authority to integrate the two pilot groups within the constraints of the Transition Agreement? Yes
Did he publish an award that met those constraints and was binding on all parties? Yes
Did management accept the award and pay for it upon delivery? Yes
Does it matter what will or will not “fly” on the east? Not at all
Is there any moral justification for breaking ones’ agreements when the other party does not agree to modify the arrangement? Never.

 

[LSS]

Were the east pilots represented by an agent (not entirely representative of the East pilot population)? NO
Did that agent legally represent the east pilots? (Not if you did not want them as your representative!)
Did that agent consent to a Transition Agreement that included a process for seniority integration? see above)
Was that process followed? NO
Did that process call for and result in Binding Arbitration? Not really... only to the extent that it was a internal union "Bargaining position"
Did both pilot groups have an opportunity to strike their least preferred arbitrators? (See above)
Did the arbitrator have the full authority to integrate the two pilot groups within the constraints of the Transition Agreement? NO, only within the confines of the union at the time's bargaining position
Did he publish an award that met those constraints and was binding on all parties? NO, see above
Did management accept the award and pay for it upon delivery? I don't know in what manner the company PAID for it... they may have accepted delivery... but that's about it
Does it matter what will or will not “fly” on the east? Not at all... (well at least you got this one partially right)
Is there any moral justification for breaking ones’ agreements when the other party does not agree to modify the arrangement? Yes... when the West continues to try to screw the East pilots.

Internal Union proposal to the company... with the union free to re-open sections of the CBA (as the company likes to do) at any time until a CBA is ratified... even a seniority list... !

 

[Pi brat]

I need to start keeping track of how many times I have asked this question and have never received a response ... please cite any recognized moral code (religious, civil, philosophical, whatever), that governs any societal interactions which explicitly states that violating an agreement/covenant is considered honorable/moral or that professes that honoring one’s agreements is considered immoral/dishonorable. In this country and with our reliance on Judeo-Christian ethics it is unquestionably true that breaking agreements, contracts, or covenants is immoral. You can try to hide from that fact, but thus far you haven’t cited any objective standard of morality that holds that what the east pilots are doing is in any way considered to be moral or acceptable conduct in any society.

I have explained it, you refuse to listen!

 

[Pi brat]

That would be their preferred excuse. The truth is more likely that they don't want or care to know.

With such a split in the opinions of the pilots that the union has a legal responsibility to represent, regardless of whether they feel they need to or not, it would be simple and inexpensive insurance to put rumors and speculation to rest, and cover their backs when asked to explain their actions. (That is, if they are confident that the outcome would be as they claim it would.)

Do you KNOW why they don't? If not, get back to me when you do.

 

[CallawayGolf]

(not entirely representative of the East pilot population)

The NRLB and RLA would disagree that the CBA didn’t have the legal right to represent all US pilots

(Not if you did not want them as your representative!)

How does an individual pilot accomplish self-representation when a certified CBA is voted is?

Was that process followed? NO

Do you have any impartial evidence to support the claim that the process wasn’t followed?

Did that process call for and result in Binding Arbitration? Not really... only to the extent that it was a internal union "Bargaining position"

Do you consider the Company to be part of that internal decision? Seniority left the arena of a internal matter when the Transition Agreement was singed by the CBA and the various companies represented.

I don't know in what manner the company PAID for it... they may have accepted delivery... but that's about it

That’s because you don’t have enough information about this issue. You need to do a little more research into the FACTS

Is there any moral justification for breaking ones’ agreements when the other party does not agree to modify the arrangement? Yes... when the West continues to try to screw the East pilots.

Again – any objective, long recognized moral code to support your claim?

 

[luvthe9]

Any blame you want to assign to Nicalau is totally misplaced. Blame your merger committee. Geez, they were flat out warned by Nic. that their DOH scheme wasn't going to fly...but in typical eastie arrogance, blind with entitlement and delusions of superiority, declined to heed the warning ...............

Nice Try Metro, you should blame you own merger committee, you were all warned at Wye Rriver, guess you were not there.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I have explained it, you refuse to listen!

Which moral code was that again? I seemed to have misplaced the response where you cited a long-recognized moral code which explicitly states that breaking agreements is considered moral. I would greatly appreciate knowing that since I haven't come across any yet in my own studies.

 

[LSS]

Dude... I don't need any more information than what I've experienced, and read... The MEC "APPOINTED" the Merger Committee... Did I have any say in that?... Oh... and I know what your retort will be... well, you voted in the MEC... the hell I did... it was the "good ole boy" ALPA machine that kept their "favored sons" in power!... With Rice controlling what constituted a valid "recall" ballot... in both CLT and PHL... I saw how corrupt ALPA was... I witnessed it first hand... so get off your fricking high horse and understand that no matter the band width you choose to waste... WE WILL NEVER EVER AGREE... the courts will decide this matter! And I don't give a darn what nefarious labels you try to place on the East pilots... (and I think you've already called us every name in the book)... guess what... WE DON'T GIVE A DAMN!

 

[Metroyet]

Internal Union proposal to the company... with the union free to re-open sections of the CBA (as the company likes to do) at any time until a CBA is ratified... even a seniority list... !

Sure about that?! 3 years later...you have less than nothing to show for it!! What's the problem?

 

[Metroyet]

Any blame you want to assign to Nicalau is totally misplaced. Blame your merger committee. Geez, they were flat out warned by Nic. that their DOH scheme wasn't going to fly...but in typical eastie arrogance, blind with entitlement and delusions of superiority, declined to heed the warning ...............

Nice Try Metro, you should blame you own merger committee, you were all warned at Wye Rriver, guess you were not there.

Warned of what exactly? You guys have been told time and again you're on a fools errand. The Jury conviction in less than 2 hrs is kind of an indicator don't you think?

 

[Pi brat]

Which moral code was that again? I seemed to have misplaced the response where you cited a long-recognized moral code which explicitly states that breaking agreements is considered moral. I would greatly appreciate knowing that since I haven't come across any yet in my own studies.

I've got to go, but I might try to explain it to you latter if I feel like I have some more time to waste.