US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Rather well thank you very much. The Company is taking large strides in giving us what we want at the table. The skirmish you've been hearing about is in regard to pay banding of the 777 and 747. (Real big airplanes, for you little regional type folk) Yes there was some interesting banter back and forth from the MEC's last week, but rest assured it is being handled. Unlike you guys, we don't negotiate in public, nor do we buy into the web-board hysterics. We get our info from the source. Not rumors from "my college roommate." What ever happens, it will be settled as per ALPA merger policy, and we'll all move on, with an industry leading contract by the way, and stand by our commitments. Doesn't really matter who's happy with it or not. It's irrelevant. Binding is binding.

Another little tid-bit... I haven't seen the pay rates yet, but I did hear they are "well north" of Delta's. Enjoy your LOA 93 rates 'till retirement.

You guys really have a history of cutting off your nose in spite of your face. When UA is done merging, you'll be lucky to still be in STAR. I've heard some very interesting plans for UA's future, with CO management at the helm. You have absolutely no idea what's coming. But enjoy your little temper tantrum over DOH. 😛 It must burn your butt that you STILL haven't been able to resurrect your career by stealing someone else's seniority. Lord knows you've been trying for almost a decade.

Well maybe you should call Bloomberg and tell them they got their OCT 9 story wrong! MM!http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-09/united-continental-pilots-extend-contract-talks.html www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-united-20101108,0,7206479.story

 

[cleardirect]

To put it simply.....Cart before the horse. You can't move on to question B (Merit/Procedure) until satisfying question A (Ripeness). I think Seham and team were pretty confident that we would never get to question B. I'm no lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but I would think Ripeness took center stage because that was the first step in the process....i.e.; should Wake have even heard this case.

And I thought you were one to 'stick to/play by' the rules.....you know, integrity, morality and all???


Now, why do you think the 9th ruled as they did? And Judge Silver will rule the same. NOT RIPE!

Because the union is not yet done negotiating and the process is not complete.

When USAPA became the new bargaining agent, all sections of the yet to be completed JCBA were reviewed. Many sections, whether complete or not, were found to be lacking. The previously completed 'final and binding' proposal of the prior bargaining agent conscerning Section 22 was also found to be lacking. USAPA continues to bargain in negotiations with the company for a fair and equitable agreement in an effort to represent all US Airways pilots fairly. It is their right and their duty. When we are done, and the process is complete, if anyone (East or West) is unhappy with the result, and feel they were not FAIRLY represented, they will then be free to persue their claim in the courts. Not before then. Some ask why USAPA has opposed the companies motion for DJ and is asking for dismissal. The reason is to move the process along more quickly and efficiently. It will be far faster to get to a completed JCBA if the courts step aside (as they should) rather than go through all the processes and expense of a trial just to end up in the same place....NOT RIPE!

Surprisingly I agree with you. If the company DJ is dismissed that will move this along quickly. But not in the direction that the east wants it to go. I think the case will get dismissed. Probably on jurisdiction not ripeness. However if Parker cannot get the court to give him immunity (count 3) or a pre-trial answer (count 2) he is going to have to go with count 1. My opinion is that if dismissed he is going to have to make the decision that he has been avoiding for over 3 years.

Parker will make an announcement that because the Addington case was won on the merits (Kirby has been saying that in the crew news) and a new contract will make that case ripe. Because the company agreed to the T/A and has accepted the Nicolau award. Because at the beginning of this merger Parker made the statement that stapling the east was not fair and DOH for the west was not fair. That C&R restrict the company to much and are too expensive. Because arbitration actually means something. Because the court would not give him immunity on count 3. Parker is going to have to act in the best interest of the company, shareholders and the 35,000 employees by not putting the company at risk with a multi-million dollar law suit or risk injuncting a new contract and wasting all of that time. That Parker will decide that the FINAL AND BINDING is really final and binding. That the company will use the Nicolau arbitration award.

The best part about that is that in that instance you are right. That eliminates the lengthy trial. And that decision is not appeallable to anyone. Over, done, finished. Instead of a year to go to trail delayed by Seham and his money machine, than another year or more for usapa to appeal. Decision in a month or so or the same decision in 2-3 years. We will not have a contract until that question is answered. Enjoy LOA 93.

On the other hand judge Silver could decide that she wants to see Seham in action in her court room to see if he pulls the same antics. So in that case if the DJ does not get dismissed. Would you all agree than to expedited trial to get us to an answer or will Seham still delay at every turn?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Surprisingly I agree with you. If the company DJ is dismissed that will move this along quickly. But not in the direction that the east wants it to go. I think the case will get dismissed. Probably on jurisdiction not ripeness. However if Parker cannot get the court to give him immunity (count 3) or a pre-trial answer (count 2) he is going to have to go with count 1. My opinion is that if dismissed he is going to have to make the decision that he has been avoiding for over 3 years.

Parker will make an announcement that because the Addington case was won on the merits (Kirby has been saying that in the crew news) and a new contract will make that case ripe. Because the company agreed to the T/A and has accepted the Nicolau award. Because at the beginning of this merger Parker made the statement that stapling the east was not fair and DOH for the west was not fair. That C&R restrict the company to much and are too expensive. Because arbitration actually means something. Because the court would not give him immunity on count 3. Parker is going to have to act in the best interest of the company, shareholders and the 35,000 employees by not putting the company at risk with a multi-million dollar law suit or risk injuncting a new contract and wasting all of that time. That Parker will decide that the FINAL AND BINDING is really final and binding. That the company will use the Nicolau arbitration award.

The best part about that is that in that instance you are right. That eliminates the lengthy trial. And that decision is not appeallable to anyone. Over, done, finished. Instead of a year to go to trail delayed by Seham and his money machine, than another year or more for usapa to appeal. Decision in a month or so or the same decision in 2-3 years. We will not have a contract until that question is answered. Enjoy LOA 93.

On the other hand judge Silver could decide that she wants to see Seham in action in her court room to see if he pulls the same antics. So in that case if the DJ does not get dismissed. Would you all agree than to expedited trial to get us to an answer or will Seham still delay at every turn?

My take is that ripeness isn’t a sufficient factor in a DJ case as the purpose of a DJ is to have the court issue relief prior to an act that would subject one or more of the parties to threatened law suit. So long as there is sufficient controversy or evidence to suggest that a law suit will be filed, then a DJ suite is sufficiently ripe for adjudication. In this case there should be no shortage of evidence that there is extreme controversy over the seniority integration issue and that the Company would be named as a defendant in a law suit if they are shown to have violated the terms of the TA in CBA negotiations. Judges can be exceedingly capricious so there is no telling what Silver will do with this case, but a dismissal on jurisdiction seems to go against the intended purpose of the DJ protocols.

I would also question whether or not a dismissal by Silver would expedite the JCBA negotiations in any way. Management could continue to tell USAPA they intend to retain the NIC without further negotiations on that section without making a public declaration. Section 22 would then be just another point of dispute for the NMB to have to wrestle with once the process gets that far. Also, even if Parker made a “NIC is it and that’s the end of it” proclamation, I wouldn’t expect USAPA to accept that it just because he says so. My guess is that USAPA will only agree to the NIC if they are under a federal injunction to do so, and even then I wouldn’t trust them to abide by any such injunction. They will stall at every turn to avoid the NIC even if it puts them in a perilous position with the courts.

$eham and Cleary will gladly crash and burn this “union” long before they would ever decide to accept the NIC, even in the face of certain futility. $eham might pull the rip cord just before he opens himself up to jail time, but my guess is that Cleary would gladly go to jail for contempt of court before he accepted the NIC. Sanity left the building long ago so this dispute has virtually no chance of being resolved in the near-term if it depends at all on USAPA’s leadership complying with the law.

 

[tripod727]

can someone tell me how long the seat lock is when transitioning to a new plane? thanks

 

[cleardirect]

$eham and Cleary will gladly crash and burn this “union” long before they would ever decide to accept the NIC, even in the face of certain futility. $eham might pull the rip cord just before he opens himself up to jail time, but my guess is that Cleary would gladly go to jail for contempt of court before he accepted the NIC. Sanity left the building long ago so this dispute has virtually no chance of being resolved in the near-term if it depends at all on USAPA’s leadership complying with the law.

I agree sanity left the building long ago along. But Cleary will not go to jail for this idea. If the company does get an injunction or some form of court ordered the Nic is it we will see IBT on the property before the ink is dry on the order. Read all of the releases from usapa. Everything they are doing is positioning for a merger or take over by the teamsters. So all of that talk about being an independent union is BS. It was about avoiding the Nicolau. When that does not happen Cleary will look for a IBT national job and the deep pockets and protection of a national union. Throwing the rest of us east and west to the wolves.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I agree sanity left the building long ago along. But Cleary will not go to jail for this idea. If the company does get an injunction or some form of court ordered the Nic is it we will see IBT on the property before the ink is dry on the order. Read all of the releases from usapa. Everything they are doing is positioning for a merger or take over by the teamsters. So all of that talk about being an independent union is BS. It was about avoiding the Nicolau. When that does not happen Cleary will look for a IBT national job and the deep pockets and protection of a national union. Throwing the rest of us east and west to the wolves.

You certainly could be right about that. The question is how committed is he to holding on to his beliefs that he is right about DOH and the NIC not being binding even when everyone else says he is wrong? If he is only in this to advance his personal wealth and prestige with little underlying concern for the ideology, then a Teamsters merger does make sense. That scenario just gives him more credit for having a lucid and rational mind than I have seen thus far.

 

[psw737]

can someone tell me how long the seat lock is when transitioning to a new plane? thanks

Pretty sure its 12 or 18 months.

 

[Black Swan]

Looks like there is some interesting info coming out regarding the outing of pilot data to Leonidas illegally. Apparently there was a merger between personnel that crossed lines of management and pilots, and that is being looked into as the source. Time will tell, but sounds like there is an interesting trail for the IT personnel following up the leak. Cactusgate. Supposedly Cleary was on an overnight in the hotel next door, couldn't sleep and looked out the window and saw it going down at HQ.

 

[Black Swan]

Please do come back when there is some actual news from the courts. Your interpretations are appreciated. I too looked at the new rules and had to scratch my head. I guess drama and three ring circus are good for business. This place is becoming a urinal where the bitter and angry lynch mob come to vent their frustrations. It's quite entertaining, but makes it hard to have an actual conversation.

Right now it's the same old talking points of the propaganda machine, regurgitated over and over. (With the obligatory jabs and personal attacks to anyone not holding the line.) Maybe when the DJ is final there will be something to discuss once again. I predict another nuclear meltdown, and a card drive once the LOA 93 pay restoration fails, with USAPA and the east's DOH wet dream relegated to the history books as a colossal failure. (Just my opinion, of course. 😀 )

We predict an even bigger meltdown on the West with the oncoming train steaming down the tracks with the news of Internal Union Affairs. Another thing to look forward to. CACTUSGATE. The pending investigation and pursuit of the illegal outing of pilot information right from Team Tempe. Right to Leonidas LLC. Looks like more trouble and need for donations. Keep em coming. Remember Team Tempe. They're Large, and In Charge. Right on down to IT disclosure.

 

[767jetz]

Well maybe you should call Bloomberg and tell them they got their OCT 9 story wrong! MM!http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-09/united-continental-pilots-extend-contract-talks.html www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-1109-united-20101108,0,7206479.story

Jealousy becomes you, MM.

Try posting a link that actually works. You would think that all the time you spend here, you'd have figured out how to use the "insert link" function by now.

I'm sure you were referring to the article that said:

"But it's rare for a rift to be publicly aired so early in the negotiating process. That caused some observers to question whether the United dispute could lead to a deeper schism like the bitter rift over seniority that has divided pilots of US Airways and America West Airlines since their 2005 merger."

But if you read further it also says:

"I think this is something that can be resolved before it goes nuclear,"

and:

"The union has been incredibly creative over the years in resolving exactly that kind of dispute"

Sleep well MM, this will be resolved either way. As much as you hope for others to experience your pain, it simply won't happen at UA/CO. In fact I spoke to my reps just days ago, and Pierce and Morse have already talked and warmed relations again. Whether the 777 and 747 are banded or not, this issue will be nothing more than a bump in the road to our soon-to-be industry leading contract,with pay rates "well north of Delta's."

In the mean time, enjoy your LOA93 pay rates. You deserve every penny of lost income you are enduring.

 

[767jetz]

Another thing to look forward to. CACTUSGATE.

But wait! I thought the east was the one accusing the west of being overly litigious. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. I guess we can chalk up one more lawsuit to USAPA's increasing tally.

Or is it that USAPA is justified in all it's legal undertakings, yet anyone who files suit against USAPA is "wasting time and money?"

OK. Got it. :blink:

 

[Black Swan]

But wait! I thought the east was the one accusing the west of being overly litigious. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. I guess we can chalk up one more lawsuit to USAPA's increasing tally.

Or is it that USAPA is justified in all it's legal undertakings, yet anyone who files suit against USAPA is "wasting time and money?"

OK. Got it. :blink:

Since we're talking money and time......One can only begin to delve into the pathos and obsession of groups who supposedly have no connection, yet have a connection so persistent and relentless that it spins into thousands of little shards of anger, never ending. Imagine the things that could have been accomplished had the energy been directed in more fruitful endeavors..............

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Looks like there is some interesting info coming out regarding the outing of pilot data to Leonidas illegally. Apparently there was a merger between personnel that crossed lines of management and pilots, and that is being looked into as the source. Time will tell, but sounds like there is an interesting trail for the IT personnel following up the leak. Cactusgate. Supposedly Cleary was on an overnight in the hotel next door, couldn't sleep and looked out the window and saw it going down at HQ.

That should be interesting as US Airways is currently in litigation with both parties involved. Discovery if the case gets that far should be interesting.

 

[767jetz]

Since we're talking money and time......One can only begin to delve into the pathos and obsession of groups who supposedly have no connection, yet have a connection so persistent and relentless that it spins into thousands of little shards of anger, never ending. Imagine the things that could have been accomplished had the energy been directed in more fruitful endeavors..............

BS, I'm impressed. That was very eloquently stated. You made your point without even sounding offensive. Bravo!

Not that you really care to know, but what the heck... My connection to the west pilots, beyond the friendship of a couple of them, is more of understanding and empathy for having been faced with a similar fate of being "hitched" to a group (the same group in fact), hell bent on stealing my seniority about 10 years ago. That fire was started and fueled by your group with a vengeance, hence my determination to stand up to what I perceive is a gross injustice and speak up in support of the "little guy" who now lives through a fate which the east once attempted to foist upon me. That is the extent of my connection.

My interest in seeing the result of binding arbitration through to completion at LCC is the precedent that would be set by allowing a group of malcontents (who thumb their nose at a process they agreed upon simply because they played their cards wrong and didn't like the result) to walk away from their legal obligations by hanging a new sign on the union door.

You can feel free to ask about my motivations repetitively, in an effort to redirect the conversation from the facts, but the answer will continue to be the same.

The fact that you guys continue to find blame in every corner of the universe except yourselves, well that's certainly delving into the world of pathos. No?

 

[N924PS]

We predict an even bigger meltdown on the West with the oncoming train steaming down the tracks with the news of Internal Union Affairs. Another thing to look forward to. CACTUSGATE. The pending investigation and pursuit of the illegal outing of pilot information right from Team Tempe. Right to Leonidas LLC. Looks like more trouble and need for donations. Keep em coming. Remember Team Tempe. They're Large, and In Charge. Right on down to IT disclosure.

Sounds like an intersting theme for a movie. Do you think they can get Sean Penn to play the role of "Captain Mike Cleary?"