US Pilots Labor Discussion

[oldiebutgoody]

The TA was agreed to by the union representatives of each side (the MEC's) and the company (originally "the airline parties") so became a ratified agreement in 2005. Two of the three required steps to full integration were completed prior to USAPA becoming the CBA - single certification and seniority. Only one required step is still to be completed - the remainder of the contract. USAPA has a DFR and a contract responsibility to fulfill and so far haven't fulfilled either.



ALPA was open to the two MEC's agreeing to modify the Nic while still meeting the company's requirements as stipulated in the TA. ALPA couldn't unilaterally modify the Nic per their C&B/L's.



I'm aware that he said it, but what everyone on the East omits is that it was a bargaining position when Freund said that - the Nic had neither been submitted to the company nor been accepted by the company. However, once accepted the Nic was no longer a bargaining position.

Jim

Again, incorrect. It's a bargaining position until it's in a ratified contract. Mr. Parker himself says that in the latest Crew News. Make up all the fake facts you want, the Nic STILL ain't gonna happen.

 

[sumadarson]

The TA was agreed to by the union representatives of each side (the MEC's) and the company (originally "the airline parties") so became a ratified agreement in 2005. Two of the three required steps to full integration were completed prior to USAPA becoming the CBA - single certification and seniority. Only one required step is still to be completed - the remainder of the contract. USAPA has a DFR and a contract responsibility to fulfill and so far haven't fulfilled either.



ALPA was open to the two MEC's agreeing to modify the Nic while still meeting the company's requirements as stipulated in the TA. ALPA couldn't unilaterally modify the Nic per their C&B/L's.



I'm aware that he said it, but what everyone on the East omits is that it was a bargaining position when Freund said that - the Nic had neither been submitted to the company nor been accepted by the company. However, once accepted the Nic was no longer a bargaining position.

Jim

USAPA video, without the ALPA shills comments

 

[Pi brat]

So we come full circle in the argument once again. Right back where it all started. Based on the above quote, the only thing that matters is what actually was on 5/19/05. USAirways glorious days of past doesn't matter. Who was a captain in the past doesn't matter. Who was employed in the past doesn't mattter. What may have happened doesn't matter.

By your own admission, on that day the only thing that mattered was what existed that day. And I agree. Which means on that day you had 17 year furloughs and 18 year guys as the junior reserve f/o's on the 320. That's as junior as you can get, no matter how you spin it. Your junior pilot had the same seniority as the junior pilot on the west, regardless of the date they were hired. Remember, "what was or was not before really doesn't matter." If USAirway's bankruptcy and precarious financial situation didn't matter, neither does the date you were hired. On that day HP had aircraft deliveries and money in the bank. On that day, both companies ceased to exist and a new one was formed. Hence the premise for the Nic award. Relative seniority. Junior is junior. Senior is senior.

You guys can stomp, and grunt, and argue 'till the cows come home, but you can't have it both ways. It never fails to provide entertainment when I see guys like oldie cursing Parker as a useless drunk when someone mentions he accepted the Nic, but quotes him as Gospel when he speculates (after the fact) that HP was inevitably doomed. Or Black Swan who claims Parker is the second coming because he basically says 'you guys figure it out for yourselves.'

And here we are again, over 200 pages with not one new piece of actual information that changes anything. The only thing keeping the DOH dream alive seems to be the endless banter on this forum. Why all the arguing? You guys claim to be OK with it, so until the courts work this out, there will be nothing but LOA 93 pay rates and work rules 'till retirement. Just be sure to put some aside for the damages.

PS. You can all save yourself some time and spare me the flame bait PM's. And I'm sure oldie or nostradamus will post some childish or inaccurate link about ALPA or the UA/CO merger falling apart. So predictable (and pathetic) as usual. 🙄 Go ahead and have the last word.

You're wrong!... No. YOU"RE wrong!... No. YOU are!... No. YOU!... No. YOU!... etc.

That's not what I mean and I have explained my thought to you in a PM.

I don't understand the trying to guess the better of two merging airlines going forward anymore by looking at a date in time anymore than looking at their past performance. My thoughts have been to take the fleet at that date, the seniority list at that date, run the list out until retirement and see where everyone falls out. Then go back and order the list so that most guys hit those gates. I've been told that the east MC looked at something like that. If not that, make it DOH and take all the guessing out! 😀

To look at AWA and US at the merger date and say that AWA had a brighter future and that east pilots had more to gain was folly, IMHO. By the time he put his list out, Nicolau already had evidence showing the assumptions were incorrect.

It's interesting for you to call anyone on here pathetic when you don't work for the company and spend as much time, or more, than anyone else.

 

[nic4us]

And there you have it..."the Aristocrats!"

Honestly, push down that lever on the side of your chair, lean back, and return to Mattlock. Are you not aware of what has transpired over the last year?

It is as if this entire forum has entered into some sort of Wayback machine. We have Prechill, the stock clerk, Jim the ALPA guy, and even the Goat man all now back presenting arguments that have long been answered and dead. It’s a madhouse, I tell you..a madhouse.

Jim, the second highest court in the land did not "rule" that the NIC was only a bargaining position, but they saw fit to say just that in their PUBLISHED ruling as commentary. They said ALPA and USAPA both could have abandoned that hideous bargaining position. They also acknowledged the NIC would never pass a vote. None of those "comments" were rulings..but guess what....All roads lead to the Ninth, eventually. Go figure.

Don't even get me started on your horribly biased view of USAPA's conditions and restrictions. You obviously have not read them. I am actually opposed to them because they almost entirely favor protecting West interests. As to that poor JUNIOR pilot (East or West) not getting to bid into his or her base of choice..Boo Hoo. That's not "the Aristocrats"...that's Seniority!

RR

RR,

You pulled way more out of the 9ths decision than is there.

1The dissent asserts that “nothing would be gained by postponing a
decision, and the parties’ interest would be well served by a prompt resolution
of the West Pilots’ claim.” Diss. op. at 8017 (internal alterations,
quotation marks, and citation omitted). To be sure, the parties’ interest
would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute, but that is
not the same as prompt resolution of the DFR claim. The present impasse,
in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’
claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any
contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its
membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain
in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

They are straight up telling usapa, hey we cannot rule because it is not ripe. We cannot fix the seniority dispute, we are here to decide a DFR claim. usapa says they can't get a contract with the Nic passed, so we will leave them to get one passed that does not contain the Nic, then hand them their asses.

They never said usapa or ALPA could have abandoned the Nic. They stated,

"that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor,ALPA."

Was ALPA free to abandon the Nic, (I will use you east posters favorite quote), not anywhere in their Internal Union Process.

Further, what the majority failed to see was that the company ain't playing along. usapa can risk the "pain", but the company is unwilling. Hence their request for the DJ. What, you think Seham knows more than the company lawyers and the 9th?

I will get you started on the C&Rs. First, they do not matter, because there are no C&Rs in the Nic, which is where we are headed. Second, the C&Rs allow for any unfilled PHX vacancies to be open to the east. So lets say the West has 884 F/Os. In the most junior 100, 30 would like to move to CLT, cause that is where they live because they were furloughed from USAirways in 2001. Now there are 30 PHX vacancies, and Collello and 30 of his furloughed buddies gets to go from furloughed to first in seniority, jumping the entire West F/O group.

 

[Pi brat]

In their view, stealing is not an integrity issue. It's okay to call someone a liar as well, even if you never lied and did everything within the American legal system.

Really. I wonder if he tells his son "Sonny, the Nic award really screwed the senior west pilots, they have no fences so that senior west commuters(924PS) can come right in on top of them. But, that's okay, because is helps me make up for my failed TWA career and that's all I really care about. Can I interest you in a badge backer instead of your allowance this week?" I mean, because he is so truthful and all.

 

[traderjake]

It's a bargaining position until it's in a ratified contract. Mr. Parker himself says that in the latest Crew News.

You really need to stop making stuff up.

The NIC Award is the seniority list until it is replaced is in a joint contract.

The courts probable are not going to let you replace it.

 

[Reed Richards]

RR,

You pulled way more out of the 9ths decision than is there.

Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any
contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its
membership.

"that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor,ALPA."

Thanks Nic...just like I said.

I cannot spin this any better than you just did. What part of "undoubtedly be rejected" and "free to abandon" do you not get. Really.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

How about taking the fleet and pilot group on hand that day, run it out to retirement age without guessing for grow or shrinkage and see what happens?

Havfen't we played this game before? As soon as you say "without guessing for grow or shrinkage" you're introducing expectations into the mix - the expectation that the future fleets will remain static indefinitely. However, US had canceled all outstanding delivery dates and reached agreements with the lessors to return aircraft - agreements signed months before the merger was announced. Not as good for the East, so let's disregard facts and instead use the assumption of a static East fleet. Likewise, HP had delivery positions/dates for additional aircraft as of the merger announcement, as well as new hires lined up to start class to staff the growing fleet. Not so good for the East so disregard those facts also.

So you end up with an assumption that favors the East while disregarding facts that favor the West.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Thanks Nic...just like I said.

I cannot spin this any better than you just did. What part of "undoubtedly be rejected" and "free to abandon" do you not get. Really.

RR

Read the whole quote.

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.



RR quotes Lincoln, "Four fathers concieved all men" Lincoln says so right there in the first line.

I included the rest of the address for everyones enjoyment.

 

[Pi brat]

Havfen't we played this game before? As soon as you say "without guessing for grow or shrinkage" you're introducing expectations into the mix - the expectation that the future fleets will remain static indefinitely. However, US had canceled all outstanding delivery dates and reached agreements with the lessors to return aircraft - agreements signed months before the merger was announced. Not as good for the East, so let's disregard facts and instead use the assumption of a static East fleet. Likewise, HP had delivery positions/dates for additional aircraft as of the merger announcement, as well as new hires lined up to start class to staff the growing fleet. Not so good for the East so disregard those facts also.

So you end up with an assumption that favors the East while disregarding facts that favor the West.

Jim

I thought a date is time was what everyone wanted! No, what everyone wants is what favors themselves the most. Airplane orders and cancellations come and go. We were supposed to receive many A320s next year and get rid of 737s and both of those have changed, right? You have what you have today, isn't that is what has been said over and over? You take that and roll it out until the current list is gone, then it takes the guesses out of up and down. We can stop going around and around anytime you want to admit you are wrong. 🙄

I didn't address this as a possible solution, I was countering the words jetz put in my mouth. There is no solution to this other than letting a court tell us who is right, so let's wait out over the next few years and see.

You don't have to reply to me

 

[Reed Richards]

Read the whole quote.

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.



RR quotes Lincoln, "Four fathers concieved all men" Lincoln says so right there in the first line.

I included the rest of the address for everyones enjoyment.

You got me there Nic. I am sure Lincoln was thinking about a small scab based airline formed in a State that did not even exist when he wrote that.

You go girl. There is no "equal' in senority. You get what you get, based on when you were hired. Nothing more.

RR

 

[767jetz]

That's not what I mean and I have explained my thought to you in a PM.

I don't understand the trying to guess the better of two merging airlines going forward anymore by looking at a date in time anymore than looking at their past performance. My thoughts have been to take the fleet at that date, the seniority list at that date, run the list out until retirement and see where everyone falls out. Then go back and order the list so that most guys hit those gates.

It's interesting for you to call anyone on here pathetic when you don't work for the company and spend as much time, or more, than anyone else.

Just to be clear I was not calling you pathetic. Just those who predictably post links to redirect attention from the question or comment at hand, or throw trash, insults, and flame bait.

The problem with your method is that once again it favors the east. Hitting gates is speculating on the future. It is conjecture. As Jim points out, on the day of the merger East was returning aircraft and shrinking, west was taking delivery and expanding. This was a fact the day of the merger, and ignoring it in favor of a static world seems rather convenient since it favors the east.

Like it or not, the arbitrated list is the only one that really exists. You guys have been throwing money away every day for years on a fools errand that will lead you back to where you started, while accumulating nothing but damages. The only path ever to modify the nic was through mutual consent of east and west, which USAPA eliminated all by themselves. As time goes on it becomes easier to prove deliberate intention to delay and benefit from separate ops, failing a duty to represent the west. Nothing said on this forum will change that.

 

[AWE Dog]

There is NO such thing as relative position in life.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What part of "undoubtedly be rejected" and "free to abandon" do you not get. Really.

RR

Don't you find it a little odd that the 9th could predict the outcome of a ratification vote at some undetermined time in the future but was unable to envision what future events might happen before seniority is in a ratified contract, hence the "not ripe" ruling? Did the 9th question every USAPA MIG about how they'd vote under any possible scenerio of agreed to items to reach their "undoubtedly be rejected" conclusion? Did they consider the effect on the outcome of a ratification votge for every combination of individual pilots that went out on medical, returned from medical, were furloughed, returned from furlough, etc? The East will be in a minority at some point in the future - did the 9th include that in their calculation of "undoubtedly be rejected"?

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Just to be clear I was not calling you pathetic. Just those who predictably post links to redirect attention from the question or comment at hand, or throw trash, insults, and flame bait.

The problem with your method is that once again it favors the east. Hitting gates is speculating on the future. It is conjecture. As Jim points out, on the day of the merger East was returning aircraft and shrinking, west was taking delivery and expanding. This was a fact the day of the merger, and ignoring it in favor of a static world seems rather convenient since it favors the east.

Like it or not, the arbitrated list is the only one that really exists. You guys have been throwing money away every day for years on a fools errand that will lead you back to where you started, while accumulating nothing but damages. The only path ever to modify the nic was through mutual consent of east and west, which USAPA eliminated all by themselves. As time goes on it becomes easier to prove deliberate intention to delay and benefit from separate ops, failing a duty to represent the west. Nothing said on this forum will change that.

Ally righty then, As both AWA and U.S. Air characterized the transaction in official government filings, “America West Holdings would be acquired by, and become a wholly-owned subsidiary of, U.S. Airways Group.” Local 545 Ex. 4, Joint Application of America West Airlines, Inc., U.S. Airways, Inc., and PSA Airlines, Inc. for Approval of a Transfer of Certificate and Exemption Authorities at 2 (July 8, 2005); see also Joint Ex. 6, In the Matter of the Application of the Transport Workers of America (U.S. Airways/America West Airlines), 33 N.M.B. 221, 224 (June 5, 2006).3
The transaction was approved by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court overseeing the U.S. Air Group’s Chapter 11 reorganization proceeding on September 27, 2005. Joint Ex. 7 at Nos. 1-2. On June 5, 2006, the National Mediation Board (“NMB”) found that AWA and U.S. Air constituted a single transportation system for the purpose of representational issues affecting the Flight Dispatchers at the two carriers. Joint Ex. 6. Consistent with standard practice in airline mergers, the collective bargaining agreement between the “acquiring” company and its Flight Dispatchers, the U.S. Air/Local 545 agreement, will apply to the combined Dispatcher workforce at the combined carrier. Joint Ex. 7 at No. 6; see also, Joint Ex. 3 (U.S. Air/Local 545 Collective Bargaining Agreement). Local 545 will be the bargaining representative for all Flight Dispatchers at the combined carrier. Joint Ex. 7 at No. 6.
At the time of the merger, all AWA Flight Dispatchers were based in Phoenix, AZ, and all U.S. Air Dispatchers in Pittsburgh, PA. Joint Ex. 7 at No. 8. At an as yet
3 The Joint Application sought the transfer of the various entities’ international certificate authority, routes and exemptions to U.S. Air. Local 545 Ex. 4 at 15.
5