US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Can you do it if you are mid- to lower-level in your category? Or are perks like this limited only to those at the top?

(This is a serious question, and not meant as flame bait.)

Educate us out east on PBS. What are the downsides? There must be some. How do the bottom block holders fare in this PBS nirvana?

Yes you can put 2 weeks together at any seniority level. We bid monthly. With PBS you can easily put together 5-6-7 days anywhere in your month. So what you do is load the front of the first month and load the back of the second month. As long as you get your 15-16 days of flying in PBS does not care where they go as long as it is legal. It is still the same amount of time you just get to move it where you want it.

The downside to this is your flying is crammed into 3 weeks instead of 4 but if you commute or have something to do. We all sacrifice for what we want.

Of course with any system the bottom guys don’t do as well anyway. But with PBS if you have to have that special occasion off or desperately want that one trip you have a chance of getting it. Unlike it being built into a great line that you will never see.

With some creative bidding and a week of vacation guys can get most of December off or most any month.

Everyone has different things we want or like in a line. Some guys like nights some guys short time away from base who knows. Unless it is a holiday month Not everyone is going to want the first or last weeks of the month off so seniority does not become an issue. Senior or junior. PBS you can also bid for your reserve days off there too. Guaranteed 12 days off a month 13 in 31. That gets harder because of reserve rules but you can still put together a nice string of days off.

With PBS you get to decide what a good line is not someone else’s idea of a good line.

 

[cleardirect]

OK, I guess your going to blame USAPA for the F/A lack of contract, and they've had the same union, let's see what's in common,hey it's management, MM!

The F/A's have been waiting for the pilots to get finished. They are now moving on and will soon have a contract.

 

[AWA320]

This is all well and good. In fact, it's about the same stuff I found in looking at the Federal Arbitration Act.

Tell me this, then:

Why didn't the West MEC (when they had the chance and saw the USAPA card drive going full steam) file to have a court confirm the Nicolau? If this option were indeed open to them, wouldn't their failure to do exactly that be a DFR complaint?

I'm not flame-baiting here, but simply wish to know WHY this confirmation by a court had/has not taken place if it is a viable option for the west?

Please don't go down the road of "two federal judges and a jury have confirmed it." That is NOT at all what the Federal Arbitration Act is talking about. The F.A.A. has specific provisions for confirmation and how to go about it.

If it was available, why wasn't it used? If is was not available, why even bring it up now, i.e. what's the point?

Well to answer your question, it wasn't necessary at that stage because enough time had not passed (RIPE) to allow the east to do the right thing. Now that time has passed (years) and the east has proven that it has no intent of honoring the arbitration, it can now be proven to the court. Now keep in mind that everything is not a DFR and pilots place too much on this. I would have expected this to be the next move however the company decided to enter the ring for its own interest which I firmly believe to be for no other reason than to merge this place again.

Lets face it, you and I ie east and west will never ever share the same cockpit now as it becomes a liability for LCC. The internal battle has casued irreparable damage thus rendering LCC as it stands today not viable. No carrier out there today would ever risk getting with LCC with this battle still raging and should LCC lose out on the next merger there will be zero dance partners.

Now if we look at the climate of the industry we see the big carriers (true legacy) coming together eating up the int'l market share. SWA is doing the very same to the domestic market with its purchase of Airtran. Now lets assume for a moment that 5yrs from now SWA makes a move on Alaska, that would all but make them domestic dominate crushing every other LCC left Jet Blue and Frontier would be on borrowed time. The clock is ticking on usairways which is the real reason why this company filed for the DJ.

AWA320

 

[nycbusdriver]

Throwing the BS flag on this one.Either you have no clue or you are outright lying.

From the last bid award the junior captain on the 330 is PHL seniority number 452. The most senior west pilot adjusted for today would sit number 697. 245 number from holding bottom 330 captain.

So your BS, BS does not hold up to the facts. Show us what west captain could hold a 330 captain position? Come on you made the statement.

I can tell you without question I have not heard one capt over here say anything about giving up on the Nicolau to commute to PHL to fly the wide body.

You are correct. Based on DOH, no one on the west could hold a 330 captain bid since the junior reserve is a 1981 hire.

But, unless west pilots are 100% different than any other pilot group in history, there will be those west pilots who will indeed commute to PHL to fly the A330 as captain the first chance they get. There will even be those who will commute to reserve to do it. Maybe not many, but there will be some. I'll betcha a beer!

Let's face it. There are some pilots who commute to reserve just to get away....ahem. What better excuse to the ol' ball-and-chain than, "I'm doing it for the pay, honey!"?

 

[No Land Green]

The internal battle has casued irreparable damage thus rendering LCC as it stands today not viable. No carrier out there today would ever risk getting with LCC with this battle still raging and should LCC lose out on the next merger there will be zero dance partners.


AWA320

I think your problem is PHX, doesn't fit in with AMR or UAL. The AWA product isn't "viable" as admitted by Parker in your last PHX Pilot Crew meeting.

True, with PHX, there are "zero dance partners". The East sees this, this discussion has been had in many an East cockpit and crew room.

I feel your pain in regards to stagnation, the East knows all too well about stagnation. This last bid though shows upward movement, which will continue in the future as guys retire and go out on medicals.

As many Westies have wished, Long Live LOA 93. Upward movement, even under LOA 93 means a pay and quality of life increase.

Happy Holidays!!!

 

[nycbusdriver]

With PBS you get to decide what a good line is not someone else’s idea of a good line.

Thanks for that info. I don't think the east is dead-set against PBS, but we view it suspiciously due to the info passed on to us from our committees (ALPA and USAPA) that says the system is ripe for abuse by the company. If there were a way to truly nail down the limits and keep the company from unauthorized "tweaking/gaming" the system, I doubt there would be much resistance to PBS on the east. It was supposed to be implemented here quite some time back (like 2002,) but the company could never show a system to us that they couldn't abuse to their advantage.

I doubt Tempe would go along with it, but if/when an acceptable PBS system were to be presented, it would go a long way toward "selling" it to the east pilots if they would run a 3 month parallel phantom PBS bid period with our regular block system. If it really works as well as you say (and I have little reason to doubt it,) the pilots would see how much nicer their schedule would have been with PBS than with the block they were actually awarded and there will be much support to implement it.

 

[cleardirect]

You are correct. Based on DOH, no one on the west could hold a 330 captain bid since the junior reserve is a 1981 hire.

But, unless west pilots are 100% different than any other pilot group in history, there will be those west pilots who will indeed commute to PHL to fly the A330 as captain the first chance they get. There will even be those who will commute to reserve to do it. Maybe not many, but there will be some. I'll betcha a beer!

Let's face it. There are some pilots who commute to reserve just to get away....ahem. What better excuse to the ol' ball-and-chain than, "I'm doing it for the pay, honey!"?

I agree there may be a very limited number that would do it. But BS said that could happen now. He was wrong. The west captain is 245 number from even holding it. Doing some quick math even assuming that 5
% of the fleet being 330's and 20% retiring from that airplane. That is still 5 years before the first west pilot could possibly hold a 330 position as a junior reserve captain under DOH.

So BS premise that there are senior west captains demanding a DOH list and contract is false.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Well to answer your question, it wasn't necessary at that stage because enough time had not passed (RIPE) to allow the east to do the right thing. Now that time has passed (years) and the east has proven that it has no intent of honoring the arbitration, it can now be proven to the court. Now keep in mind that everything is not a DFR and pilots place too much on this. I would have expected this to be the next move however the company decided to enter the ring for its own interest which I firmly believe to be for no other reason than to merge this place again.

Lets face it, you and I ie east and west will never ever share the same cockpit now as it becomes a liability for LCC. The internal battle has casued irreparable damage thus rendering LCC as it stands today not viable. No carrier out there today would ever risk getting with LCC with this battle still raging and should LCC lose out on the next merger there will be zero dance partners.

Now if we look at the climate of the industry we see the big carriers (true legacy) coming together eating up the int'l market share. SWA is doing the very same to the domestic market with its purchase of Airtran. Now lets assume for a moment that 5yrs from now SWA makes a move on Alaska, that would all but make them domestic dominate crushing every other LCC left Jet Blue and Frontier would be on borrowed time. The clock is ticking on usairways which is the real reason why this company filed for the DJ.

AWA320

With the exception a a bit of your phraseology, I agree with your post.

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks for that info. I don't think the east is dead-set against PBS, but we view it suspiciously due to the info passed on to us from our committees (ALPA and USAPA) that says the system is ripe for abuse by the company. If there were a way to truly nail down the limits and keep the company from unauthorized "tweaking/gaming" the system, I doubt there would be much resistance to PBS on the east. It was supposed to be implemented here quite some time back (like 2002,) but the company could never show a system to us that they couldn't abuse to their advantage.

I doubt Tempe would go along with it, but if/when an acceptable PBS system were to be presented, it would go a long way toward "selling" it to the east pilots if they would run a 3 month parallel phantom PBS bid period with our regular block system. If it really works as well as you say (and I have little reason to doubt it,) the pilots would see how much nicer their schedule would have been with PBS than with the block they were actually awarded and there will be much support to implement it.

We where also suspicious. There was a lot of resistance at first. But other than the occasion west pilot no one wants to go back to paper bidding after you get used to it.

We ran a 6 month parallel bid after taking a 2 hour class to learn how to bid. Yes we got paid for it.

You are right the devil is in the details. It is vital to nail down the parameters of the system. But the NAC does not have anyone that knows what those are and the pitfalls of not covering them.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

And why is us air a crappy company? Don’t say management, that has changed several times. The common denominator is the employees that have been here for 20-25-30 years. AWA was a pretty good place to work. Us air is not.

You guys made it what it is a crappy place to work.

Management, reason no-pilot contract, no-f/a contract, this management has failed at 3 mergers, provides lousy service to it's customers, hey read the reports and is inept at best with their finances, oh no WE DID NOT MAKE THAT!, TEAM TEMPE did! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well to answer your question, it wasn't necessary at that stage because enough time had not passed (RIPE) to allow the east to do the right thing. Now that time has passed (years) and the east has proven that it has no intent of honoring the arbitration, it can now be proven to the court. Now keep in mind that everything is not a DFR and pilots place too much on this. I would have expected this to be the next move however the company decided to enter the ring for its own interest which I firmly believe to be for no other reason than to merge this place again.

Lets face it, you and I ie east and west will never ever share the same cockpit now as it becomes a liability for LCC. The internal battle has casued irreparable damage thus rendering LCC as it stands today not viable. No carrier out there today would ever risk getting with LCC with this battle still raging and should LCC lose out on the next merger there will be zero dance partners.

Now if we look at the climate of the industry we see the big carriers (true legacy) coming together eating up the int'l market share. SWA is doing the very same to the domestic market with its purchase of Airtran. Now lets assume for a moment that 5yrs from now SWA makes a move on Alaska, that would all but make them domestic dominate crushing every other LCC left Jet Blue and Frontier would be on borrowed time. The clock is ticking on usairways which is the real reason why this company filed for the DJ.

AWA320

Well maybe you can read between the lines. And if they can't merge it they will sell it in pieces! MM, maybe sooner than later, now take it one more step about USAPA filing to have it tossed and you might, I say might connect some dots!

 

[East Hole]

And why is us air a crappy company? Don’t say management, that has changed several times. The common denominator is the employees that have been here for 20-25-30 years. AWA was a pretty good place to work. Us air is not.

You guys made it what it is a crappy place to work.

If you are such an expert on USAirways and have spent so much time over the last several decades in our crew rooms, cockpits and overnights with east employees you should write a book so we can all find out what it was like. However we were there and you were not, but as always you are the aviation expert and will let us know the real truth.

 

[cleardirect]

Management, reason no-pilot contract, no-f/a contract, this management has failed at 3 mergers, provides lousy service to it's customers, hey read the reports and is inept at best with their finances, oh no WE DID NOT MAKE THAT!, TEAM TEMPE did! MM!

So you are trying to tell us that us airways has only become a crappy company in the last 5 years but was not a crappy company for the last 20.

 

[No Land Green]

AWA was a pretty good place to work.

According to some late 80's AWA Pilots, "AWA was" NOT "a pretty good place to work".

 

[cleardirect]

If you are such an expert on USAirways and have spent so much time over the last several decades in our crew rooms, cockpits and overnights with east employees you should write a book so we can all find out what it was like. However we were there and you were not, but as always you are the aviation expert and will let us know the real truth.

I don't need to be in your crew rooms. All I have to do is listen to your own pilots

crazystnic
They know the bottom 2/3 of this list has taken a beating over the last 20 years...

MUTATIS MUTANDIS
And your point, US is a crappy airline, Ok, next revelation! MM!