US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

The only language in dispute as per the transition agreement is in the pay rates. It has been stipulated by USAPA that the rest of the agreement remains in status quo per the RLA. Only the pay rates had an expiration date attached to them - the rest of the agreement did not.
So the company cannot decide the 'duration language of the TA has been exceeded', because to do so would violate the RLA rules.
So, if USAPA wins the grievance, pay rates return to the underlying agreement, LOA 84, which well exceeds parity. Company gets a bigger payroll on the east, no PBS, no changes in any other language.....AND NO NIC.

Cheers.

Oh, and it's all retroactive to Jan. 1, 2010.

The duration language in the TA is entirely exclusive of the date included in LOA93. Go read it, there is specific references to twelve months after single carrier status, just as LOA93 has a specific reference to 01-01-10.

If usapa wins the grievence, you will get your pay retro to 01-01-10, followed by an immediate implementation of the West contract on the east pilots.

You are aware that the company claimed in the Heminway letter, that they could put the west on the east contract, as if they could pick a surviving contract once the NMB granted single carrier status? However, that was a hollow threat because it would have meant hiring dozens of schedulers, ditching PBS contracts etc.. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence the economics change significantly and the east will find themselves on the West contract virtuallly overnight. That means we are all on the same single collective bargaining agreement, and immediate adherence to the Nic. Further, the company will quit following any other TA language, as they will consider the transition to a single CBA complete. All three legs of the stool are there, single carrier, single contract, single seniority list. Completion of operational pilot integration as per the TA. No min fleets, No min block hours, No restrictions on who can fly which airplane where.

Good luck! Hope you win. You will get a nice big 2010 bonus, then a raise to the contract 2004 payscales, more vacation, better workrules and a better scheduling system.

 

[Reed Richards]

The duration language in the TA is entirely exclusive of the date included in LOA93. Go read it, there is specific references to twelve months after single carrier status, just as LOA93 has a specific reference to 01-01-10.

If usapa wins the grievence, you will get your pay retro to 01-01-10, followed by an immediate implementation of the West contract on the east pilots.

You are aware that the company claimed in the Heminway letter, that they could put the west on the east contract, as if they could pick a surviving contract once the NMB granted single carrier status? However, that was a hollow threat because it would have meant hiring dozens of schedulers, ditching PBS contracts etc.. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence the economics change significantly and the east will find themselves on the West contract virtuallly overnight. That means we are all on the same single collective bargaining agreement, and immediate adherence to the Nic. Further, the company will quit following any other TA language, as they will consider the transition to a single CBA complete. All three legs of the stool are there, single carrier, single contract, single seniority list. Completion of operational pilot integration as per the TA. No min fleets, No min block hours, No restrictions on who can fly which airplane where.

Good luck! Hope you win. You will get a nice big 2010 bonus, then a raise to the contract 2004 payscales, more vacation, better workrules and a better scheduling system.

Nic. We have a very, very small chance of winning the LOA 93 Grievance. Not because we are right or wrong..but because that is the way the world works.

Win or lose, it has no effect on your CBA either way, until it is a joint CBA. Pretty simple.

Of all the possible outcomes, the one to simply eliminate is the even remote chance NIC is part of a joint ratified CBA. Not going to happen. Not in my career, nor those following me a decade later.

There was a brief window of opportunity for you all to make this work, and that was at Wye River many years ago. You had the chance, but not the permission of your MEC, to cut a deal on LOS vs. furlough. You passed, and understanding the politics at the time, you passed with pride. But you screwed up.

So here we be.

RR

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The way I see it, no matter what happens in the LOA93 arbitration, there is an upside for the West.

If usapa loses, the pressure is on for a better contract, that means a Nic inclusive contract if usapa wants to remain the bargaining agent.

If usapa wins the grievence, that means the east will in effect replace themselves. The company will decide that the duration language of the TA has been exceeded, for the same reason they lost this grievence. Then the east will get their parity, as they are put onto the West contract. Problem solved. East gets parity, company gets PBS, manageable pay scales, crappy scope language etc..West gets Nic.

Of course there is a third possibility. The arbitrator comes up with some sort of compromise like reinstates the annual 3% raise going forward, but based on the current payscales. That will lead to a continuation of the litigations on all fronts, because it will give usapa just enough support to keep the fight going.

USAPA doesn't need 3% to keep the quest for a decent contract going, wonder how long it will be before you blame USAPA for the lack of the F/A contract, DP isn't in a hurry looks like! BTW looks like there is a disagreement in your thinking! MM! From August 17, 2007 until the date of
ALPA’s decertification on April 18, 2008, there were
no further negotiations towards a single CBA
between ALPA and US Airways. Id. at 1178. An
impasse had arisen, and it was an impasse of
potentially indefinite duration since neither the TA
nor ALPA Merger Policy contained a timetable or
deadline within which to complete a new, single
7 Petitioners stipulated to this fact prior to trial, and the
stipulation was adopted by the district court as part of the final
pretrial order. (Resp. App. B, 13a at ¶ 16).
10
CBA. The Ninth Circuit specifically recognized the
existence of this impasse – and its practical effect:

 

[prechilill]

If usapa wins the grievence, that means the east will in effect replace themselves. The company will decide that the duration language of the TA has been exceeded, for the same reason they lost this grievence. Then the east will get their parity, as they are put onto the West contract. Problem solved. East gets parity, company gets PBS, manageable pay scales, crappy scope language etc..West gets Nic.

Nic4 that is a brilliant point, I never considered that portion of the T/A. Another dead end for the east.

 

[Barrister]

The solution came years ago in the form of a mutually agreed upon process. What you want is a do over or a second bite at the apple and that just aint gonna happen. Why you ask? Why should we is the better question? The general concensus out west is for as long are we are employed we will pay and file suit after suit after suit until the supreme court rules if necessary. What the east has done and continues to do has brought shame to this industy. Make a deal you honor it PERIOD!!! I dont like to see you folks earning less than we do however I am just as happy to watch the east stay at industry bottom and retire pilot after pilot under LOA 93 and the low rate PBGC.

AWA320

Your constant crying and whining is getting old !!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

TB, you go girl spend another 2 mill trying to get that brilliant point covered! MM!

 

[aquagreen73s]

There was a brief window of opportunity for you all to make this work, and that was at Wye River many years ago. You had the chance, but not the permission of your MEC, to cut a deal on LOS vs. furlough. You passed, and understanding the politics at the time, you passed with pride. But you screwed up.

So here we be.

RR

Yes, here we be. Furlough via LOS would have been as insane as accepting DOH. Trouble for many East pilots is that they're working under a contract that is worse than MESA's, their pay is now being eclipsed by regionals, and time is ticking away. Most on the West have time to amortize this debacle measured in the decades. Not true for the East. It's up to them. Retire poor with the satisfaction of no Nic is within their right. Go for it. We on the West can care less either way.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

REED, Your comments sort of reminded me of this ! MM! From: u-turn

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:58 PM

Subject: U-Turn: Taking Responsibility



Taking Responsibility



“A recession is when you have to tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business.” Sir Adam Thomson



Over the past few U-Turns, we’ve noticed a change in the tone of comments we’ve received. Maybe the reality of what we are up against is finally sinking in. Some accused us of taking the quotes from the Freund rebuttal out of context. We didn’t. We’ve had requests for copies of Jeff Freund’s actual East Vs West court documents. The file is too big to be directly cut and pasted. We can forward it in a scanned PDF-ZIP/Scan format. Just email us. Remember, we have no website, no budget and receive no donations. Maybe someone will paste it as an attachment on the AWAPPA web board for all to view. We would do it ourselves, but we’ve all been banned from the AWAPPA web board since May.



We have also received additional comments on what happened at Wye River from both sides. While our initial reporting appears to be correct and consistent with the latest accounts, it was incomplete. Here’s additional information from both sides.



According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We won’t address his motivation for leaving.

As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.



ALPA’s lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summer’s ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didn’t.



In last summer’s East Vs West lawsuit, the East used ALPA DUES MONEY and an ALPA-Approved attorney, Roland Wilder, to pursue the case. As far as we can determine, we had to use our own Merger Fund money to defend ourselves. Thanks for choosing sides, ALPA! In the likely event that the NIC will be trashed in a single contract, it will be our own voluntary contributions that will have to be raised for a DFR lawsuit. USAPA expects it, so we shouldn’t disappoint them. This could be an extremely costly effort that could drag on for years. U-Turn is not discouraging filing a DFR, and we need closure.



Jeff Freund is a top-notch lawyer. We have no doubt that he told our MEC the truth about how negotiable the NIC really was. The question is: why didn’t CJ, Bendett, et al, listen? We figure that they either didn’t believe him or after all their hairy-chested resolutions and hotlines, they were afraid to back down. What good are attorneys if you don’t take their advice?



There is one other possibility. We mentioned it in a previous U-Turn. Our union leaders believed that the USAPA vote would be close (razor’s edge, to quote one of them) and that it was worth holding out and rolling the dice, figuring that if ALPA survived, so would the NIC. Too bad ALPA didn’t explain the importance of the 30% of East pilots who refused to participate in the Wilson Polling.



We now have a better picture what the East MEC had on the table: an 8 year fence, furloughs by longevity (LOS), MDA time not counting for longevity, Dave O’Dell having 400 pilots below him, and the Nic surviving as THE LIST. Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldn’t get to first base with it.



Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that.



U-Turn





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[aquagreen73s]

You're using UTurn for your intel?

No wonder you're in the predicament you're in.

 

[Bear96]

There was a brief window of opportunity for you all to make this work, and that was at Wye River many years ago. You had the chance, but not the permission of your MEC, to cut a deal on LOS vs. furlough. You passed, and understanding the politics at the time, you passed with pride. But you screwed up.

So here we be.

RR

So it has been only the West's responsibility during all of this to bend to "make it work"?

 

[nic4us]

Nic. We have a very, very small chance of winning the LOA 93 Grievance. Not because we are right or wrong..but because that is the way the world works.

Win or lose, it has no effect on your CBA either way, until it is a joint CBA. Pretty simple.

Of all the possible outcomes, the one to simply eliminate is the even remote chance NIC is part of a joint ratified CBA. Not going to happen. Not in my career, nor those following me a decade later.

There was a brief window of opportunity for you all to make this work, and that was at Wye River many years ago. You had the chance, but not the permission of your MEC, to cut a deal on LOS vs. furlough. You passed, and understanding the politics at the time, you passed with pride. But you screwed up.

So here we be.

RR

I have always thought the LOA93 grievence was as Parker said, "disingenous". I read the company's 12 page letter to the pilots regarding it, and felt their arguement was completely sound, and usapa would lose. However, I have posted many times that I hope you guys win the thing, and my reason is because it would break the logjam.

A Nic inclsive contract may not get past a ratification vote, I say once it is evident there is no moving forward without the Nic it would, but an imposed single contract does not need a vote.

Your post is very civil, and I appreciate that, but, do not try to lay this at the feet of the West because we failed to capitulate at Wye River. There was plenty of opportunity for compromise well prior to Wye River, there should have never been a Wye River meeting, and that is not the fault of the West.

 

[LSS]

Bear,

By that I guess you mean that the West got so much in the arb that anything that might resemble fair (not perfect) to both sides (prior to the mess we are in) is unobtainable... frankly I don't think the courts will give the company a "get out of jail free card"... so this wil continue on forever. I think the east pilots would welcome any west pilots constructive input to move beyond we are at this point... but the west will always view it as they give and the dishonorable east takes... why do you think the east views the arb as a west "lottery" ticket?

To be clear, I don't think straight DOH is fair... but I also don't think putting almost new hires in front of people with 17 years... never furloughed is either.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

BEAR96, Holding another," SERVING CART SIDEBAR" ? MM!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I think the east pilots would welcome any west pilots constructive input to move beyond we are at this point...

The only "way" to move on is the Nic as there isn't any more "West" entity that has the legal capacity to negotiate. You can thank USAPA for that one.

... but the west will always view it as they give and the dishonorable east takes... why do you think the east views the arb as a west "lottery" ticket?

Nobody but the East thinks the Nic is a lottery ticket. The Nic went the same methodology as NWA/DAL which will be the same as UAL/CAL. You on the East need to get real. 17 years bought a bottom of seniority job at AAA. You can't expect an exchange value much beyond a merged position in the same relative position.

To be clear, I don't think straight DOH is fair...

But you were willing to try to cram it down the Wests' throats. How nice of you.

... but I also don't think putting almost new hires in front of people with 17 years... never furloughed is either.

See above.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The only "way" to move on is the Nic as there isn't any more "West" entity that has the legal capacity to negotiate. You can thank USAPA for that one.

Nobody but the East thinks the Nic is a lottery ticket. The Nic went the same methodology as NWA/DAL which will be the same as UAL/CAL. You on the East need to get real. 17 years bought a bottom of seniority job at AAA. You can't expect an exchange value much beyond a merged position in the same relative position.

But you were willing to try to cram it down the Wests' throats. How nice of you.

See above.

Sounds like it's YOUR the one who has a predicament! MM!