US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

If they had a job, they wouldn't be furloughed. They had a job at some point in the past, they may again have a job at some point in the future (and rights to any such job before new hires), but at the time they didn't have a job.

I guess one could just as well say that someone never hired would have a job at some point. Does that mean that they have a job at a specific point in time so should be integrated as active pilots?

Jim

You don't see my point, but again, you are entitled to your opinion as others are here.

Your second paragraph makes no sense since I did say that a pilot NOT hired does NOT bring a job to the merger.

 

[sumadarson]

If they had a job, they wouldn't be furloughed. They had a job at some point in the past, they may again have a job at some point in the future (and rights to any such job before new hires), but at the time they didn't have a job.

I guess one could just as well say that someone never hired would have a job at some point. Does that mean that they have a job at a specific point in time so should be integrated as active pilots?

Jim

All the Empire Airline Pilots brought a job to your former airline and you stapled them to the bottom. Your hypocrisy never ends.

 

[sumadarson]

No sir a seniority number is a far cry different than a job!

AWA320

Your legal "experts" are doing you no favor. Look at the route map below, what is the fulcrum of your argument, sir?


What you contributed, thus far, to this arrangement

 

[aquagreen73s]

All the Empire Airline Pilots brought a job to your former airline and you stapled them to the bottom. Your hypocrisy never ends.

Notwithstanding your aiming for a personal attack against Boeingboy, you do bring up an interesting point about the Empire pilots: the union - all by itself - determined that a stapling was fair. No arbitration, just that's the way it was going to be. Twenty five years later there is still cause to question the fairness of that simply because it's impossible to say that the process in Empire-Piedmont was objective. How do we now determine whether it was fair or not fair to staple the Empire pilots? We can't because a third party didn't decide the issue.

Now fast forward to our situation. We had an arbitration and that arbitrator with the help of two pilot neutrals determined what was fair. It wasn't AAA or AWA or ALPA. It was a panel of one arbitrator with the help of two pilots making the call. But, what you want to do is the exact approach you are aiming at Boeingboy for in the Empire-Piedmont - a cramdown. DON"T YOU SEE YOUR OWN HYPOCRISY?

 

[AWA320]

Let's just agree to disagree on that statement. But I feel a furloughed pilot with a seniority number would tell you different, even a West Furloughed Pilot.

I know some of your Pilot's hired in 2000 were furloughed for a while.

Ok lets look at it this way, a pilot is placed in a pool after interviewing and that pool is later drained for some reason. Is that pilot entitled to furlough or unemployment benefit??

AWA320

 

[sumadarson]

Notwithstanding your aiming for a personal attack against Boeingboy, you do bring up an interesting point about the Empire pilots: the union - all by itself - determined that a stapling was fair. No arbitration, just that's the way it was going to be. Twenty five years later there is still cause to question the fairness of that simply because it's impossible to say that the process in Empire-Piedmont was objective.

Now fast forward to our situation. We had an arbitration and that arbitrator with the help of two pilot neutrals determined what was fair. It wasn't AAA or AWA or ALPA. It was a panel of one arbitrator with the help of two pilots making the call. But, what you want to do is the exact approach you are aiming at Boeingboy for in the Empire-Piedmont - a cramdown. DON"T YOU SEE YOUR OWN HYPOCRISY?

I am responding to a posters post. Let them handle it, you trying to do this for them is frankly an insult to them. I am not asking you.

 

[sumadarson]

Your legal "experts" are doing you no favor. Look at the route map below, what is the fulcrum of your argument, sir?


What you contributed, thus far, to this arrangement

AWA 320?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Can't answer the question, can you?

Figures.

Any other USAPA true believers want to take a stab at it? How does one reconcile the treatment of the Empire Pilots with what USAPA is trying to do now?

 

[No Land Green]

Ok lets look at it this way, a pilot is placed in a pool after interviewing and that pool is later drained for some reason. Is that pilot entitled to furlough or unemployment benefit??

AWA320

320,

No, because he is in a hiring pool. If he started employment with a, here goes, a date of hire, then yes, he would be entitled to unemployment or whatever furlough benefit provided by the CBA he/she falls under.

My point is furloughed pilots do have a job, maybe not an active one, but they have a job.

 

[nevergiveup]

If they had a job, they wouldn't be furloughed. They had a job at some point in the past, they may again have a job at some point in the future (and rights to any such job before new hires), but at the time they didn't have a job.

I guess one could just as well say that someone never hired would have a job at some point. Does that mean that they have a job at a specific point in time so should be integrated as active pilots?

Jim

The furloughed pilots and their families were forced to give up more than anyone to save the airline. They are a large part of the reason you and I have a job today. Using them for stepping stones to advance one's seniority without paying one's dues is wrong. We all would like a free ride. Call it....career expectations. It could happen to you!

 

[sumadarson]

Can't answer the question, can you?

Figures.

Any other USAPA true believers want to take a stab at it? How does one reconcile the treatment of the Empire Pilots with what USAPA is trying to do now?

I asked a question of boeing boy and awa 320, if I wanted an easy night I would have gone after you.

 

[No Land Green]

Can't answer the question, can you?

Figures.

Any other USAPA true believers want to take a stab at it? How does one reconcile the treatment of the Empire Pilots with what USAPA is trying to do now?

Give them their Empire DOH.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I asked a question of boeing boy and awa 320, if I wanted an easy night I would have gone after you.

So why do you run? I'm right here. 😀

Give them their Empire DOH.

Why? Because the Empire-Piedmont process that went down was wrong?

 

[AWA320]

You are not entirely wrong above and I agree with most of it.

I think the problem is where you put one sides career over the other sides. Is this a moving target? How do you give everyone the same career? Do we reset everyone's careers every so often depending on retirements, growth, shrinkage, profit, loss?

I am not saying that one has more value than the other, what I am saying is that when you have a pilot that brought a job and one who brought a furlough number (no job) there is really no comparison.

No moving target necessary, what should be done and whats being done since in the industry is people are placed based on where they were the day before. Thats fair. Usapa thru its DOH mantra is saying that its fair to staple almost 90% of the west pilots and dont feel that its a lottery ticket, windfall, or unfair! Its the "its all about me" syndrome.

When this is over we on both side will look back and see just how much we both got screwed then it will sink in that we screwed ourselves.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

All the Empire Airline Pilots brought a job to your former airline and you stapled them to the bottom. Your hypocrisy never ends.

One question here Nostradamus, what was the merger/seniority list integration policy when the empire pilots were merged?? If that policy was DOH, then I fail to understand your point. Further if thats the case they you do yourself an even greater disservice by attempting to change/enforce what was once into today. The policy in effect when you and I were merged was NOT doh yet you and many in the east seek to enforce that which was not in effect.

AWA320