US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Cally, TASHIMA and GRABER, didn't miss a thing! MM!

 

[Black Swan]

I have read that last line many times, but have understood it since the first time I read it.

2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


Very straightforward, and the usapian misunderstanding is completely mindbogling. Taken from the context of arguements of how future events make this case not ripe, the 9th said, "hey, it is even possible that usapa can come up with a non-Nic that the West does not have an issue with, and therefore avoid future litigation-so, not ripe...yet!!".

The only re-write of history is the usapian declaration that this means the 9th told you you could use a non-Nic regardless of the West's position. It is all one sentence Swan! So, come up with a non-Nic that the West is willing to accept in lieu of the Nic, or make it ripe, get sued, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".

Section 2. is extremely clear. What happens between you reading the statement that USAPA s proposal might not be harmful, even if it is not the Nic, and your posts are amazing. That is up to YOU to refer to other issues. They plainly said you might not get hurt, even without the Nic. And it will be USAPA s proposal, not yours. Nice re-write. Your comprehension is abominable. Now I know why Leonidas gets the money. It is like Binny Hinn fleecing his crowd. Where did the 9th say "hey, it is even anything?? That is you. Just you.

 

[Black Swan]

:

"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."


9th Circuit court published ruling

😀 No "hey, this is what we mean." What they said, is what they mean. No more, no less.

 

[Phoenix]

... make it ripe, get sued, lose...

If Leospanker believed that they would be working double time to get a DOH contract ratified yesterday so that they could get all the damages they are owed, sometime before their estate is inherited by their great, great grandkids.

 

[fodase]

There is no question our MEC made mistakes and gave in to a very organized, very verbal minority in our pilot group. I know the direction the Merger comittee was headed. I talked to them personally. What they told me and what they did are two completely different things. So what changed it? The MEC.

What I want is probably impossible. I want my old job back...the one I used to enjoy. This one is full of anxiety, and hatred and hard feelings. The NIC, if it is ever implemented will, IMO, break the camels back. DOH in it's purest form would do the same thing. You say I want a do over now that my fortunes improved? The NIC didn't hurt me personally to any degree. But it will hurt many of my friends and I honestly feel it will harm the airline. Even if you win, you will ultimately lose unless you remain isolated in PHX. This thing has gone on too long...the award is outdated.

You also asked in another post if I thought there was a venue to put the fairness of the NIC on trial against the present paradigm. No, I don't believe there is, but I can still want it! 😀

An East poster said he couldn't figure me out because I seem inconsistent in my opinions. I imagine that is true. I read things for myself. I judge things for myself and call them like I see them. I read the NIC cover to cover when it came out and my judgment was that it was punitive and prejudicial because we ticked NIC off and mishandled the process. That was our fault, no doubt, but what NIC did was short sighted and petty. But what about now? What happens going forward if one side or the other wins? I don't see any good coming from it. IMO, the only way we could prosper is to start from scratch. But we won't because guys in your court are committed to the NIC and guys over here are committed to DOH. Save the legal mumbo jumbo and "we don't have anyone that represents West". AOL is the closest thing I've ever seen to a labor union without being one. Collectively, we could do anything we wanted.

When pilots have to buy tickets on their own airline to travel because they can't count on being given the jumpseat, things are bad...REALLY bad. And I feel they will get worse.

Driver B)

Good post, the absolute truth is that the Nic. doesn't harm you nearly as much as you think. Your own mec used rick salamatt to look into it and at worst a few pilots upgrade would be delayed 2 years vs stand alone. I think you hit the nail in the head when you said this:

I want my old job back...the one I used to enjoy

You and your boys thought that you would roll over the west and immediately recover your career seniority losses, doh put Monda the most junior man on your property senior to 1600 west pilots. Your groups reasons were not honorable going into the arbitration your reasons were clear, still are today, let's not forget the petitions directing your mec thaat it would be doh or nothing. Rick salamatt's report on the Nic. was hidden from the rank and file because if the rank and file knew the truth usapa might have not been born. I love how usapa compares movement numbers, they use strict doh to look at the list, instead of stand alone, pathetic. The east pilots have chosen this course, you are in control, you have the overwhelming majority it's up to you to end this.

 

[Zone5]

Which means more, actually holding a Captain's position or 17 years trying to become a Captain?

When all is said and done, nobody who holds a Captains job, should lose it.

seajay

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Good post, the absolute truth is that the Nic. doesn't harm you nearly as much as you think. Your own mec used rick salamatt to look into it and at worst a few pilots upgrade would be delayed 2 years vs stand alone. I think you hit the nail in the head when you said this:


You and your boys thought that you would roll over the west and immediately recover your career seniority losses, doh put Monda the most junior man on your property senior to 1600 west pilots. Your groups reasons were not honorable going into the arbitration your reasons were clear, still are today, let's not forget the petitions directing your mec thaat it would be doh or nothing. Rick salamatt's report on the Nic. was hidden from the rank and file because if the rank and file knew the truth usapa might have not been born. I love how usapa compares movement numbers, they use strict doh to look at the list, instead of stand alone, pathetic. The east pilots have chosen this course, you are in control, you have the overwhelming majority it's up to you to end this.

NICNOT4US, Well then the reverse logic also works, your upgrades only delayed by 2 years no big deal for the WEST, whats 2 years? Ricks report was readily available, your a joke! MM! USAPA was not born soley because of the NIC, get real man! MM!

 

[nic4us]

Section 2. is extremely clear. What happens between you reading the statement that USAPA s proposal might not be harmful, even if it is not the Nic, and your posts are amazing. That is up to YOU to refer to other issues. They plainly said you might not get hurt, even without the Nic. And it will be USAPA s proposal, not yours. Nice re-write. Your comprehension is abominable. Now I know why Leonidas gets the money. It is like Binny Hinn fleecing his crowd. Where did the 9th say "hey, it is even anything?? That is you. Just you.

Very clear? Really? Did they say I might "not get hurt, even without the Nic", or did they say "usapa's FINAL PROPOSAL (um..not their current DOH proposal) may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages plaintiffs fear"? Also, and more importantly, who did they say got to decide whether I feel I am hurt and wish to sue? It ain't usapa.

My reading comprehension is abominable? What a laugh!!! Keep them comeing. Perhaps you could prove you superior comprehension by giving me your take on this quote.

[1] Although considerable time, effort, and expense have
been devoted to the merits of Plaintiffs’ DFR claim before
both this Court and the district court, we are without jurisdiction
to address the merits of the claim unless it is ripe. See S.
Pac. Transp. Co. v. City of L.A., 922 F.2d 498, 502 (9th Cir.
1990). We review ripeness de novo. See Manufactured Home
Cmtys. Inc. v. City of San Jose, 420 F.3d 1022, 1025 (9th Cir.
2005); Laub v. U.S. Dep’t of Interior, 342 F.3d 1080, 1084
(9th Cir. 2003). If the claim before us is not ripe, we must dismiss.
See S. Pac. Transp., 922 F.2d at 502.

It is the first thing they say. Come on Swan...you can do it. Hint...it does not say usapa is free to renege on binding arbitration on behalf of the majority of their pilots. So just get that out of your head right away.

Nowhere in the entire opinion does the 9th give usapa free reign to rearrange an arbitrated list. Further, they warn you idiots (just like the lawyer in the smoking gun Bradford letter) that federal judges tend to find final and binding arbitration as both "final" and "binding".

 

[nic4us]

When all is said and done, nobody who holds a Captains job, should lose it.

seajay

Are you saying that is how it ought to be, or how it is going to be, because,

You are already wrong seajay.

135 West captain positions were stolen by these scabs.

Damages started in 2008.

 

[Phoenix]

Very clear? Really? Did they say I might "not get hurt, even without the Nic", or did they say "usapa's FINAL PROPOSAL (um..not their current DOH proposal) may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages plaintiffs fear"? Also, and more importantly, who did they say got to decide whether I feel I am hurt and wish to sue? It ain't usapa....

The 9th didn't tell you that USAPA gets to determine if you have been harmed. The 9th told you who does set the standard of DFR and when that will be reviewed, but you don't like to hear about the SCOTUS.

The fact is that the 9th found that speculation about inevitable harm is not a basis to judicially intervene in the bargaining process. Addington wanted a judicial injunction but the 9th removed any judicial intervention, admitted that the court could not provide a remedy, and left USAPA free to bargain with the company.

 

[Zone5]

Are you saying that is how it ought to be, or how it is going to be, because,

You are already wrong seajay.

135 West captain positions were stolen by these scabs.

Damages started in 2008.

The loss of West Captains jobs was the result of decisions made by "Team Tempe" management. Unions never have and never will "decide" where the flying goes. Be that as it may, I think any "individual" Captain who has lost his left seat position, should be re-instated in it, under any eventual scenario regarding a seniority integration solution. I think this is how it should be.

You may be correct, I've been wrong before. Do yourself a favor and increase your credibility, drop the "scab" rhetoric. Do you really think it helps persuade anyone who might not see things your way?

seajay

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Are you saying that is how it ought to be, or how it is going to be, because,

You are already wrong seajay.

135 West captain positions were stolen by these scabs.

Damages started in 2008.

"THOSE PEOPLES, THE BAD CHILDREN", Stolen? Min fleet, min block, seperate contracts and let us not forget, LOA 93, and let us not forget"IDENTITY THEFT"!Were you the one playin with the plastic blocks eating your unhappy meal?

 

[nic4us]

The 9th didn't tell you that USAPA gets to determine if you have been harmed. The 9th told you who does set the standard of DFR and when that will be reviewed, but you don't like to hear about the SCOTUS.

The fact is that the 9th found that speculation about inevitable harm is not a basis to judicially intervene in the bargaining process. Addington wanted a judicial injunction but the 9th removed any judicial intervention, admitted that the court could not provide a remedy, and left USAPA free to bargain with the company.

Correct!!!!

But how did they leave usapa to bargain with the company? Free? Free, to impose majority rule upon ratification? or Free, under the pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR?

It was a warning. Get DOH passed, you lose, end of story! Your only saving grace is that the company (whose entire reading of the 9ths opinion mirrors mine) ain't going to go down your losing path with you, and has sought their DJ.

I got no issues with the SCOTUS. We already have SCOTUS upheld precedence in the 7th circuit that you cannot rearrange a seniority list just to appease the majority at a minority's expense. Oh, that and about, 86 years of upheld arbitrations since the enactment of the Federal arbitration act.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/06/08/jd-power-airline-satisfaction-on.html

 

[A320 Driver]

[equote name='nic4us' timestamp='1307550078' post='807264']
Driver,

Good post, however there are somethings I would like to add when it comes to "fairness of the Nic", "your old job" and "jumpseats".

Colello and Monda were hired on the same day. They likely had very parralell careers. Is it fair that Monda stayed employed while Colello hit the street? Not really, but a line had to be drawn, that is how it works. Same with the Nic. There really is no mutually agreeable "fair" way to do it, as evidenced by the need for arbitration. So, the "civil" way of doing it is let a neutral third party decide. Is it fair that Monda and Colello are now next to 2005 hires, is it fair that the #1 West pilot instantly became #518 never to get close to the top again before retiring, is it "fair" that the vast majority of senior east pilot's positions were greatly enhanced while the senior West pilots took it in the shorts? Not really, but a line had to be drawn, and it is as close to "fair" as can be expected, that is just how it works.

"your old job back". Sorry, time marches on and half the fun, actually most the fun was being young. It ain't coming back, but the "enjoy" part is a state of mind. Let go of the hate and animosity. If you encounter a West pilot, go out of your way to treat them kindly. That is what I do for east pilots, and have found it to be greatly satifying to see them go from dreading to have to deal with me, to absolutley confused as to how easy it was. I know...I am a sadistic jerk, deriving pleasure from seeing the tortured expression on the east faces when their worst fears do not materialize.

"jumpseats". Other than the hotel vans, this is where I encounter the most east pilots, oh and a lot of F/As. If someone feels they would rather buy a ticket than deal with me, that is their problem. I have never denied a jumpseat.........ever!!!!! I have never harassed a jumpseater...no wait that ain't true..there was this Jet Blue guy one time 11 years ago that was a complete tool....when he told me I should quit my AWA captain gig and apply at JB because they were going to put the likes of AWA out of bussiness, and I would soon find myself unemployed anyway, I had to reply that his upstart won't last 10 years, and what were they going to do when TWA pulled their gate leases in JFK? (see how Karma is a b..b..beautiful thing?) Anyway, after a long drought of east jumpseaters, I have recently carried very many, I even hit the east pilot trifecta with 3 in 3 consecutive legs. I welcomed all and have come to a new conclusion. Although I never discussed it with any of them, I feel their attitudes have changed substantially. Most have become comfortable in the knowledge that the Nic is the end game, and it really won't effect them whatsoever. I do still occasionally encounter the angry F/O on the crew vans, who hasn't gotten over the fact that he is not going to leapfrog me in his career at LCC, but hey, if he doe not want to deal with it, he can go buy a ticket.
[/quote]

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If you are as committed to slotting and ratioing as others, then the #1 West pilot never lost a thing. Since his career expectations were to fly a 757 from PHX to HNL, how do you expect him to instantly have the seniority to fly widebody Captain to Europe? That wasn't in his career expectations. He has the seniority to hold what he had. BTW, NIC didn't protect all of the widebody Captains like he did during the Shuttle arbitration. The most senior Shuttle Captain went immediately junior to the most junior 767 Captain (I don't think we had the A330s then). Had he used that same formula here, the most senior West Captain would have ended up around #735 or so using the A330...even worse for the 767. Nic didn't even fence West off the widebodies in any real way. It's all a matter of perspective.

My old job back...that was a metaphorical way of saying it would be nice to come to work without all the anger and strife that permeates the crew rooms.

Jumpseats: I applaud you for not letting politics enter into your offering jumpseats. I operate the same way. I enjoy talking to anyone that will listen...I don't care where they are based.

IMO, we do not disagree on much of anything except one...the NIC. I believe it to be the product of cowards and a lack of leadership in our MECs and ALPA National. Two ALPA carriers should NEVER have to give this over to a third party, but to avoid that you need leaders. Leaders not afraid to make the tough calls and not afraid to tell someone NO.

Thanks for the reply....

Driver B)