US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

So the YEAR 1/2 old arbitration has been decided ????

Absolutely. It was just decided.On this board, today. See what happens when you throw a little green around? Things happen. 😀 😀 😀

 

[cleardirect]

Ok, Clear,

Then prove it! Show us that there is more substance on the West than your narrow minded, lottrery ticket mentality. That seems to be as far as any of you want to take this problem, which reflects your inexperience.

breeze

Pot meet kettle. You falsely accused the west pilots of having no international experience. I told you that west pilots have flown all over the world in some heavy metal. It was your narrow mind that went straight back to the Nicolau award.

Guess you got nothing else.

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks again Hate. What is in that document - is a lot of the use of the term FROZEN. And we all know how that term has been used in PAST PRACTICE which is a term the esteemed Mr. Kasher is abundantly clear with. Not the term SNAPBACK which is a total misnomer, and so much so that one strange poster on this board has adopted in error. Hopefully he will be tagged with this term and appear again when this is all over. Frozen carries a lot of meaning in our airline history. And when someone is FROZEN on a bid, they don t have to re negotiate, re bid or anything else. They go back to where they were after a period of time. Same as a FROZEN pay rate, with a DATE. Butkovic is dead on. And Parker never thought he had to deal with this. Well, the day is here. And, I am for insisting the West pilots get that pay immediately also, and we start from this point in joint negotiations. Parker will LOVE that.

You might want to contact your own guy and correct his misnomer. Will you also tag Mr. Brenner with this error?

Did a little research after Luv made another false statement. Actually read the transcripts for LOA 93. How many of you have done that?

MR. BRENNER: Mr. Arbitrator, this
17 testimony gets to the heart of the credibility of
18 the other side's case, the notion that without --
19 without making it explicit, the Company agreed to a
20 substantial and significant snapback plus in wages.
21 And so we think that it's right at the
22 heart of the case and should be admitted.

Your own guy at the hearing called it snapback.

 

[N924PS]

You are a fairly young pilot group.

You have never merged with another airline.

Except for one failed attempt to operate a 747, you have no Intl experience.

Again, I respect anyone who is trying to make a living in the cockpit. It's just a fact that you haven't "been there and done that" on a lot of levels. C'mon, you have always been a regional airline.....surely you can admit that.

Breezy,

I'm sure one of the regulars can post exact ages, but the West is not all that much different from the East demographic.

You continue to perpetuate the complete misconception that former America West pilots are all 25 year old former Mesa pilots that did nothing more than fly from PHX-YUM in a Dash 8. While some of them did, many of the ones I have had the pleasure to meet while a guest on their jumpseat have enjoyed diverse aeronautical experience at previous airlines or the military.

Don't look now, but USairways was formed from regional airlines, or local service carriers as they were called under the Civil Aeronautics Board regulated era. Piedmont pilots who started out on the YS-11 or Fairchild didn't start out with the career expectation of flying a B767 to Europe and unless they did it in a previous life, had no international experience.

 

[cleardirect]

That is some ratty widebody, the A330-200. Seeing how the oldest started service last June, they are just ratted out. As Kasher said "IF YOU OWE THEM, YOU WILL PAY THEM..." Shows how little you know about arbitration in general. If they lose, they will pay, and on time. They junior west pilots have held their senior ones off the 330. All for the losing lottery ticket that they cannot figure out how to cash.

Guess you forgot about those nice 767's and the 330 that been around a little longer then June. Always go to post merger don't you? Are those nice and clean or could those old airplanes be getting ratty?

Tell you what I am going to help you out here. I talked to a friend that knows a guy that heard a story. But I actually have proof unlike you. Urban legend according to you, has it that Kasher said "IF YOU OWE THEM, YOU WILL PAY THEM...". I believe that you east guys really believe that he said that. That that is what someone heard. But like most things east you guys hear what you want to hear not the reality.

From the LOA 93 transcripts page 556. Here is what you think he said in context. It is not what you think he said it is not even close to what you think he said.

MS. EDWARDS: Sir, if I -- my objection at this point is the relevance of this testimony. Because whatever the ultimate cost is really doesn't change whether or not the parties agreed to it. And so I really don’t see how it has any bearing whatsoever, what it will cost the Company to implement the contract. If the parties agreed to do it, then the Company is bound to do it. So I really fail to see why we're going to go down this road. He's going to produce a whole load more testimony and documents, when it really has no bearing on what was agreed in 2004.

MR. BRENNER: Mr. Arbitrator, this testimony gets to the heart of the credibility of the other side's case, the notion that without -- without making it explicit, the Company agreed to a substantial and significant snapback plus in wages. And so we think that it's right at the heart of the case and should be admitted.

ARBITRATOR KASHER: Well, you're both right.

MS. EDWARDS: That's unusual.

ARBITRATOR KASHER: You're right insofar as the Board is not going to make a decision based on what the potential cost might be.

But the Carrier is also correct in its argument that having a wage increase of this type in the context of the time frame is something that's arguably something the Carrier would not have done. So you can continue testifying.

BY MR. BRENNER:
Q. You can continue, Mr. Hemenway.

"You're right insofar as the Board is not going to make a decision based on what the potential cost might be."

That is a long way from "IF YOU OWE THEM, YOU WILL PAY THEM..."

Don't you guys ever get tired of being wrong when faced with the facts? Where does it say anything about the company paying? I see a statement from the arbitrator about the carrier would not agree to those wage increases but not about paying if they owed it.

It was your lawyer that made a similar statement but that is your lawyer not the arbitrator.

Ms. Edwards: "If the parties agreed to do it, then the Company is bound to do it."
Urban legend: "IF YOU OWE THEM, YOU WILL PAY THEM..."

Quoting your own lawyer does not make it true, it makes it sad that you guys think it is true.

ps. Even Brenner called it snapback.

 

[Black Swan]

You might want to contact your own guy and correct his misnomer. Will you also tag Mr. Brenner with this error?

Did a little research after Luv made another false statement. Actually read the transcripts for LOA 93. How many of you have done that?



Your own guy at the hearing called it snapback.

I stand firm on the language in the document, the one both parties signed. There was no snap back reference. I really don't care what someone else said. Errors are and can be made, the document stands. Show us where the LOA says snap back. The LOA 93 document is the legal entity. The heart and soul of the argument. It does not say SNAP BACK, no matter what Mr.Brenner said. That was his error. The company calls it a snap back, just to undermine the situation. They said it erroneously.

 

[Black Swan]

Welcome back Jerry Glass, as well as Todd Jewett. Todd is a former USAirways employee. Well versed in the contract of both sides. I wonder why Jerry is back? Wonder why the cameras went in to such an extent in the crew rooms? Did you get them in PHX? They put them there for a reason. They expect trouble? Maybe Jerry will cause it. Maybe he will be behind a rather large contract push back, a re-interpretation of what you have done for a while. Except they have a different idea. Perhaps this is a set up for a much larger confrontation they have planned in the future. After all, this can't go on like this forever. They expect something. Interesting how a group like this can come on the property, and not really be acknowledged much at all. It is either going to be a push to a merge, or a push to divide. Which one do you think it will be?

 

[Pi brat]

Auh, so AWA bought AAA out of the kindness of their heart. Until now, I had thought it was a business deal.

No, no, no.............it was complete charity as we have seen there was no commercial value to US Airways. I mean, look at what has happened since. They haven't kept one of our trashy airplanes or routes. We are only flying the ultra valuable routes of the power house that was America West! And in their pristine 757s. 737s, and A320s that qualify as "classics". Heck, they even let us keep our name so we wouldn't feel so bad. Not only that, but did you know that it was the west pilots idea? Really, clear, prechill, fodase, nic4us, and a couple others were at a bar one night talking about all their brothers and sisters that were suffering in the is industry. They decided that US Airways had suffered the most, so right then and there they opened their wallets took all their cash and came up with $32.22. They sent it to Doug with their idea, and as they say, the rest is history. The are just too gracious to accept the credit. Thanks guys!!! No, really thanks for saving me from having to work at some fast food restaurant and eat cat food for the rest of my life! My wife and kids......oh boy, they thank you even more. I'm sorry, I've got to go, getting a little teary here................

 

[cleardirect]

I stand firm on the language in the document, the one both parties signed. There was no snap back reference. I really don't care what someone else said. Errors are and can be made, the document stands. Show us where the LOA says snap back. The LOA 93 document is the legal entity. The heart and soul of the argument. It does not say SNAP BACK, no matter what Mr.Brenner said. That was his error.

If you would like to stand by the document OK. Point out in the document the language "pay restoration".

PS I have a document that says the pilots of Us Airways and the pilots of America West agree to final and binding arbitration for a merged seniority list. That is the legal entity. I will stand by that document, how about you?

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA has no ability to negotiate anything better. Especially when they are dedicated solely to the business of generating picket line crossers.

Well, then we might end up with the east contract, huh? Then you can go to school every six months!

 

[Pi brat]

Are you under the false impression that this is our first rodeo?

I happen to know quite a few west pilots, so I don't have that impression, but you do kinda give off that vibe to those that don't know any personally.

 

[cleardirect]

Welcome back Jerry Glass, as well as Todd Jewett. Todd is a former USAirways employee. Well versed in the contract of both sides. I wonder why Jerry is back? Wonder why the cameras went in to such an extent in the crew rooms? Did you get them in PHX? They put them there for a reason. They expect trouble? Maybe Jerry will cause it. Maybe he will be behind a rather large contract push back, a re-interpretation of what you have done for a while. Except they have a different idea. Perhaps this is a set up for a much larger confrontation they have planned in the future. After all, this can't go on like this forever. They expect something. Interesting how a group like this can come on the property, and not really be acknowledged much at all. It is either going to be a push to a merge, or a push to divide. Which one do you think it will be?

First, cameras have been in the PHX crew room since it was built a few years ago. Nothing new there. Guess the thieves in CLT are going to have to go shopping somewhere else.

Why the fear of Jerry Glass? The west has worked with him before. Could it be that usapa and the all rookie NAC has no idea what they are doing? If Glass is going to push back on the contract are you guys not safe and secure in the knowledge the the grievance chair is there to protect you all? If she was any good there should be no fear. Why are you all shaking in your shoes over Jerry Glass. Has he kicked your asses so bad before? usapa is different right? usapa is the master of the world and all they see right? At least that is what they have been telling you guys for 3 years. Glass should be shaking in his shoes over the great and powerful usapa. Unless...

Glass is going to push to complete the merger not divide it like you wish. Parker got into this to merge not to put up with the antics of the east just to break it up. Judge Silver is going to decide and we are going to move forward. With or without the east pilots. You guys can fall on the floor and kick and scream like 2 year olds but this will merge and move forward.

 

[Pi brat]

You all are airline historians. Interesting, but you only tell the story of why this is so screwed up. Kind of like studying the Civil War to figure out why we are where we are right now. The Nic was like something from those times, a proposal, like keeping slavery in certain states, and out of others in order to balance power. Are any of those decisions in force today? No, but they influenced things at that point in time. The Nic will NEVER stand. You read what the 9th said. Has it influenced anything now? Absolutely. But it has to be looked at in a historical context. An event that happened at a point in time, and influenced airline history. It took USAirways out of ALPA. It caused a historic rift in airline labor at same airline. Is it going to be something going forward? Absolutely not. Merely a blip on the way to another way of integrating these two groups. You can study Nicolau all you want. It is interesting, but it has no relevance going forward. All it did was divide two pilot groups, and take ALPA off the property. The fact ALPA was taken off the property will have more import than the internal battles we now have. They will be decided shortly, and is an INTERNAL union dispute. Nothing more or less.

You are absolutely correct, none of this is anything but history. It's funny how one comment can be made to one person and three pages later it has covered just about everything! It will be decided, but I'm not sure about the shortly part!

 

[Black Swan]

If you would like to stand by the document OK. Point out in the document the language "pay restoration".

PS I have a document that says the pilots of Us Airways and the pilots of America West agree to final and binding arbitration for a merged seniority list. That is the legal entity. I will stand by that document, how about you?

You show me where it says SNAP BACK. You can't. The discussions centered about the rates of pay that were reduced, and FROZEN. Nothing said snap back. That was all the company introducing a term in to undermine our position. They can try it all they want. Kasher is smart enough to catch on to the FROZEN references throughout the contract. It means it goes back to the agreed position on a certain date. Your discussion of the East and West seniority arbitration is an entirely different animal. Between the PILOTS of each side, not the Company and the PILOTS. Get it? If you don't we do. That is why the LOA 93 deal is final AND binding.The east-west arbitration? Between two groups and an internal dispute.

 

[Black Swan]

First, cameras have been in the PHX crew room since it was built a few years ago. Nothing new there. Guess the thieves in CLT are going to have to go shopping somewhere else.

Why the fear of Jerry Glass? The west has worked with him before. Could it be that usapa and the all rookie NAC has no idea what they are doing? If Glass is going to push back on the contract are you guys not safe and secure in the knowledge the the grievance chair is there to protect you all? If she was any good there should be no fear. Why are you all shaking in your shoes over Jerry Glass. Has he kicked your asses so bad before? usapa is different right? usapa is the master of the world and all they see right? At least that is what they have been telling you guys for 3 years. Glass should be shaking in his shoes over the great and powerful usapa. Unless...

Glass is going to push to complete the merger not divide it like you wish. Parker got into this to merge not to put up with the antics of the east just to break it up. Judge Silver is going to decide and we are going to move forward. With or without the east pilots. You guys can fall on the floor and kick and scream like 2 year olds but this will merge and move forward.

I was looking for a rational response.