US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

It's mob rule.

I believe in inalienable rights and the rule of law.

You're the one that wants to put a Reserve F/O ahead of a Captain on the same airplane with your DOH scheme.

You're the one who thinks it's ok to renege on a mutually agreed upon arbitration process.

That's theft.

Jake,

What do you think about my post above to Jim about the Nic? I'd like your opinion.

 

[cleardirect]

Another diehard ALPA dick? gawd! give it up....your time has passed!

I guess that would make you a diehard usapa dick. Whose time is about to come to an end in it's current form.

 

[Pi brat]

Whose time is about to come to an end in it's current form.

How's that? What's do you think the timeline is for the end of USAPA? If that's what you meant.

 

[mrbreeze]

You want to use pre merger positions. Dean Colello and everyone junior to him were FURLOUGHED. Post merger they should still be FURLOUGHED.

That is the starting position. Monda was the JUNIOR pilot on the east list. That is his pre-merger starting position. Our number one pilot was number one. That was his pre-merger starting position.

Now as long as the FURLOUGHED pilots stay furloughed and Monda stays as the junior pilot and our number one continues to be number or or number two. We can continue this conversation. Otherwise it is a waste of time. That was the pre-merger positions. Is that what you are talking about?

Yep, it's a waste of my time.

 

[mrbreeze]

I guess that would make you a diehard usapa dick. Whose time is about to come to an end in it's current form.

Diehard USAPA....not necessarily.....but I will do all I can to prevent ALPA from every showing it's ugly face again.

breeze

 

[Pi brat]

You want to use pre merger positions. Dean Colello and everyone junior to him were FURLOUGHED. Post merger they should still be FURLOUGHED.

That is the starting position. Monda was the JUNIOR pilot on the east list. That is his pre-merger starting position. Our number one pilot was number one. That was his pre-merger starting position.

Now as long as the FURLOUGHED pilots stay furloughed and Monda stays as the junior pilot and our number one continues to be number or or number two. We can continue this conversation. Otherwise it is a waste of time. That was the pre-merger positions. Is that what you are talking about?

Nic used post merger positions, pre merger status.

 

[Pi brat]

You want to use pre merger positions. Dean Colello and everyone junior to him were FURLOUGHED. Post merger they should still be FURLOUGHED.

That is the starting position. Monda was the JUNIOR pilot on the east list. That is his pre-merger starting position. Our number one pilot was number one. That was his pre-merger starting position.

Now as long as the FURLOUGHED pilots stay furloughed and Monda stays as the junior pilot and our number one continues to be number or or number two. We can continue this conversation. Otherwise it is a waste of time. That was the pre-merger positions. Is that what you are talking about?

Nic used post merger positions, pre merger status.

From page 23:

In the exercise of caution, we have also constructed the list on a
no-growth basis, using the fleet as it existed on January 1, 2007, and
giving no weight to pre-merger orders except to the extent that any
such additions were in place as of January 1, 2007. Our judgment as to
the fleet is based, not on asserted expectations as both sides urged,
but on reality. Particularly in this day and age, with airline instability a
way of life, it makes little sense to rely on pre-merger projections. This
is especially the case here when the financial picture of both airlines
was less than optimum. A January 1, 2007 list also is a closer
reflection of reality on the merged airline. (Yet he used pre-merge status!?)
As to staffing, we have, for a variety of reasons, used the jobs
each group brought to the merger as amended by the shifts that
occurred as of January 1, 2007.

So he amended the fleet, which the east had lost more hulls, but he didn't amend the status of the guys that took the amended fleet positions! Yeah, sounds fair to me!

 

[luvn737s]

Another diehard ALPA dick? gawd! give it up....your time has passed!

No, you look at the loss of your pension from the perspective of an employee rather than a former employee. You wish to revise history and pretend there was no day of reckoning between a pension and 1 more paycheck. That day came and your representitives chose 1 more paycheck. So stop whining. You could have built the coalitions necessary to force them to choose the pension and let the judge come in and inevitably take both the pensions AND the contract away, in the interest of the shareholders. You knew that rolling the dice wasn't in your best interests, yet even today you cry about how ALPA screwed you.

The AAA pilots loaded the gun and aimed it at their own head. Your reps pulled the trigger. How was that ALPA national's fault? Forming USAPA was nothing more than a mutual admiration society where nobody on the inside is ever held accountable.

That sounds like a group that needs replacing.

 

[Pi brat]

That sounds like a group that needs replacing.

So, when are you going to stop whining and do it?

 

[traderjake]

What do you think about my post above to Jim about the Nic?

You make a valid point.

Nicolau made some mistakes, the biggest IMO being not giving us some kind of credit for our retirement attrition.

On the other hand we never asked for credit even after he told us it was not going DOH and to give him something he could work with.

 

[Pi brat]

You make a valid point.

Nicolau made some mistakes, the biggest IMO being not giving us some kind of credit for our retirement attrition.

On the other hand we never asked for credit even after he told us it was not going DOH and to give him something he could work with.

Thanks for the response. As for your last line, from page 14 of the award:


"Like that of US Airways, America West's position was not
substantially modified during the proceedings. It conceded that the
term of its proposed fence might be lengthened, but it continued to
insist that it apply only to Captains sufficient to staff 9 A330s, saying
that 8767 international flying was highly seasonal; that 8767s and
8757s are both Group I aircraft for pilot pay purposes, and that bidding
experience shows that 8767 flying is not highly prized. It also insisted
that any list must ratio active pilots with active pilots; that, based on
what was scheduled to happen at America West absent the merger and
because its pilots have been denied promotional opportunities as a
result of the merger while US Airway pilots who were on the verge of
losing their jobs have since been upgraded, a substantial number of
America West First Officers, set above at 114, should be treated as
Captains for ratio purposes, and, above all, that there be a substantial
15
number of active US Airways pilots placed below the least senior
America West pilot (Odell) so that they are exposed to the risk of
furlough before he is faced with that prospect. The reason this must be
done, according to the America West representatives, is that US
Airways pilots have been far more exposed to the risk of furlough over
,..
the course of their careers; that prospects of recovery at US Airways
were slim, while Odell, absent the merger, would have been
increasingly protected from furlough through the arrival of additional
aircraft on firm order combined with normal attrition at the carrier."

Not exactly a generous offer. I've never gotten the "they refused to change their position!" argument. By the time we got there it should have been clear to old Nic that we couldn't agree, so why ask? Had we pulled out a list that didn't say LOS, but looked just like it, would that have changed anything?

 

[luvn737s]

So, when are you going to stop whining and do it?

From the PM's I received I'd say I won't be alone in doing it, but coalitions still need to be built.

Wanna help, or stick with the losing team?

 

[Pi brat]

From the PM's I received I'd say I won't be alone in doing it, but coalitions still need to be built.

Wanna help, or stick with the losing team?

How many years has it been clear where we are headed? And you still don't have the coalitions built?

When you get them put together, I will look and consider it. One big problem is that I no longer trust some on the west, like the one guy I know associated with reform USAPA. That will have a lot to do with it.

There are several within USAPA that I don't trust, but I believe their time is short.

 

[traderjake]

Not exactly a generous offer. I've never gotten the "they refused to change their position!" argument. By the time we got there it should have been clear to old Nic that we couldn't agree, so why ask? Had we pulled out a list that didn't say LOS, but looked just like it, would that have changed anything?

I think our mistake was that we treated the arbitration as if we were still negotiating with the West when in truth we were negotiating with Nicolau.

He was not going to split the baby, he was going to do what he thought was fair and he had a track record of what that was.

He was saying to both sides, IMO, give me something I can work with we told him no, do it yourself.

 

[Pi brat]

I think our mistake was that we treated the arbitration as if we were still negotiating with the West when in truth we were negotiating with Nicolau.

He was not going to split the baby, he was going to do what he thought was fair and he had a track record of what that was.

He was saying, IMO, give me something I can work with we told him no, do it yourself.

Maybe, and since it didn't turn out well for us, maybe you are right. Just seems to me that meditation was the place for that.

One thing though. He kind of did "split the baby", so had we made the baby smaller where would we have been? Maybe just making the decision he had already arrived at look more fair? Only George knows.

BOTH sides positions were out towards the ends.