US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

I don't think if anyone forces us to use the NIC that all of a sudden guys will give in.

If that anyone is the arbitrator of an American USAirways pilot seniority arbitration whether you give in or not won't matter.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hey Jim we still get to vote and I belive you are very wrong... I don't think if anyone forces us to use the NIC that all of a sudden guys will give in.
It's wasy more personal than that.

IF a merger with AA comes along, you won't have to worry about giving in - they'll have the majority. What's that the easties keep saying about the majority getting it's way? So you can take your minority vote and then go pout...

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Hey Jim we still get to vote and I belive you are very wrong... I don't think if anyone forces us to use the NIC that all of a sudden guys will give in.
It's wasy more personal than that.

No, as soon as USAPA puts out a TA to vote on that has NIC, enough east pilots will vote for it. USAPA has proven it cannot lead, so pilots will fend for themselves and grab whatever's offered. Silver doesn't need to say a thing. The AMR announcement (if it comes) will be the tipping point.

 

[high*flyer]

IF a merger with AA comes along, you won't have to worry about giving in - they'll have the majority. What's that the easties keep saying about the majority getting it's way? So you can take your minority vote and then go pout...

Jim

I'm not sure I follow Jim, as the NIC award favored the West minority of pilots.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm not sure I follow Jim, as the NIC award favored the West minority of pilots.

An opinion not held by everybody....

However, my point was this. When USAPA was getting formed and then won the election, many on the east side were crowing about "majority rules" and that the east would be able to do whatever it wanted because it had USAPA and the majority of votes. As in the post I was responding to, many still are - claiming that a Nic inclusive contract will never be ratified by the east majority. Well...a merger with AA would entail a new majority - the AA pilots - so I hope the east is still comfortable with majority rules. The east could vote against a joint contract with the AA pilots that integrated the NIC with the AA list but it wouldn't make a bit of difference as long as the new majority - the AA pilots - approved it.

You can file this one under "Be careful what you wish for - you may get it." The east wanted their majority to control everything, but may not like it so much if a merger with AA comes along....

Jim

 

[nevergiveup]

No, as soon as USAPA puts out a TA to vote on that has NIC, enough east pilots will vote for it. USAPA has proven it cannot lead, so pilots will fend for themselves and grab whatever's offered. Silver doesn't need to say a thing. The AMR announcement (if it comes) will be the tipping point.

Humor at its best!

 

[nevergiveup]

An opinion not held by everybody....

However, my point was this. When USAPA was getting formed and then won the election, many on the east side were crowing about "majority rules" and that the east would be able to do whatever it wanted because it had USAPA and the majority of votes. As in the post I was responding to, many still are - claiming that a Nic inclusive contract will never be ratified by the east majority. Well...a merger with AA would entail a new majority - the AA pilots - so I hope the east is still comfortable with majority rules. The east could vote against a joint contract with the AA pilots that integrated the NIC with the AA list but it wouldn't make a bit of difference as long as the new majority - the AA pilots - approved it.

You can file this one under "Be careful what you wish for - you may get it." The east wanted their majority to control everything, but may not like it so much if a merger with AA comes along....

Jim

I can't find anywhere in the transition agreement where the American pilots get to vote on our contract and thus allowing the NIC to be used. Voting is a type of check and balance for the award. Refer to the ninth and what they said if you wish.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I can't find anywhere in the transition agreement where the American pilots get to vote on our contract and thus allowing the NIC to be used. Voting is a type of check and balance for the award. Refer to the ninth and what they said if you wish.

That's because you're only looking at the current situation. If there's a merger with AA you can throw the TA away - there'll be a new one. The vote will be on a combined US/AA single contract, which the AA pilots will certainly be able to vote on. If seniority in that combined contract is based on the integration of the Nic and AA lists, the east can vote no but the AA pilots will have the majority to pass it.

Remember, if there's a merger with AA the APA will be one NMB filing and an election away from representing all the pilots and the AA pilots will be the majority, so no crying from the east if that majority gets what it wants. The east wanted majority rule but may not like what it ultimately gives them...

Jim

 

[nevergiveup]

That's because you're only looking at the current situation. If there's a merger with AA you can throw the TA away - there'll be a new one. The vote will be on a combined US/AA single contract, which the AA pilots will certainly be able to vote on. If seniority in that combined contract is based on the integration of the Nic and AA lists, the east can vote no but the AA pilots will have the majority to pass it.

Remember, if there's a merger with AA the APA will be one NMB filing and an election away from representing all the pilots and the AA pilots will be the majority, so no crying from the east if that majority gets what it wants. The east wanted majority rule but may not like what it ultimately gives them...

Jim

You are correct, but will the new TA require a new contract? If not, then the agreed upon list, or the one created by an arbitrator, will become effective. Time will tell.

 

[KTM300]

That's because you're only looking at the current situation. If there's a merger with AA you can throw the TA away - there'll be a new one. The vote will be on a combined US/AA single contract, which the AA pilots will certainly be able to vote on. If seniority in that combined contract is based on the integration of the Nic and AA lists, the east can vote no but the AA pilots will have the majority to pass it.

Remember, if there's a merger with AA the APA will be one NMB filing and an election away from representing all the pilots and the AA pilots will be the majority, so no crying from the east if that majority gets what it wants. The east wanted majority rule but may not like what it ultimately gives them...

Jim

I don't think Team Tempe intends to encourage the pilots to never form a single seniority list, now or with a merger with AA. You only have to look at the way the AFA Tentative Agreement scope language is written to see that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are correct, but will the new TA require a new contract? If not, then the agreed upon list, or the one created by an arbitrator, will become effective. Time will tell.

As much as people like to think that Parker doesn't want a single contract, it's bad enough running an airline the size of US with 2 pilot contracts. Can you imagine having 3 for an airline the size of a merged AA/US? So eventually there'll be a single contract here if there's not another merger, and if there's a merger with AA there would certainly be one too. A single contract would either incorporate a combined seniority list or, like DL/NW, provide for one when it is determined.

Now, depending on what a new transition agreement stipulated, a combined contract might not be required before using an integrated list but having one seniority list but 3 contracts would be an even bigger mess than operating one airline with 3 separate pilot groups - imagine a 3 pilot widebody crew with each of the 3 working under a different contract - different duty limits, rest requirements, rigs, etc.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Do any of you well connected east pilots have a copy of the transcript from the naugler case? The judges order referred to oral arguments when explaining why this case is ripe.

I would like to read why this case is ripe using an unratified list but the ninth says an unratified list is not ripe.

Please post the transcripts.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think Team Tempe intends to encourage the pilots to ever form a single seniority list, now or with a merger with AA. You only have to look at the way the AFA Tentative Agreement scope language is written to see that.

I would hope that everyone learned something from this mess. The investors and the unions. That there needs to be time limits on the T/A. The current T/A was never designed for 7 years.

The investors want certainty, and normal unions want a better contract. Separate ops and loa 93 wages is not normal. The AA pilots are not going to care about our seniority fight. They want improved wages. Majority rules is what you east pilots say. The majority wants a new contract.

Time limits in the next T/A.

 

[luvthe9]

No, as soon as USAPA puts out a TA to vote on that has NIC, enough east pilots will vote for it. USAPA has proven it cannot lead, so pilots will fend for themselves and grab whatever's offered. Silver doesn't need to say a thing. The AMR announcement (if it comes) will be the tipping point.

I love how you guys continue to believe the fantasy of East pilots ready to vote for a deal, which screws them for life out of an upgrade that pays more, to get something now. It is an unbelievable fantasy, but hey, keep deluding yourselves. It is entertaining for us! The miscalculations are going to take you right into an AA merge with no scope. That, will be the big wakeup. 😱

 

[Res Judicata]

I love how you guys continue to believe the fantasy of East pilots ready to vote for a deal, which screws them for life out of an upgrade that pays more, to get something now. It is an unbelievable fantasy, but hey, keep deluding yourselves. It is entertaining for us! The miscalculations are going to take you right into an AA merge with no scope. That, will be the big wakeup. 😱

Every prediction you've ever made failed...just like Naughler. Rome is burning sweet pea.