1.5% Raise On May 1

[peasant]

What's wrong with outsourcing maintenance to China? We do it (Cathay Pacific) so does Boeing. Good quality work

Seriously, where do you get this idea that because of your passport, because your parents happened to make love in Tulsa rather than Xiamen, that somehow that means you have a right to more money than your counterparts in China? They have families too, they trained as hard as you too, they have self respect too.

By all means fight/ negotiate/ be more productive for a higher wage, but believe me, it isn't your birthright, only by earning it through negotiation and efficiency. Your parents' generation did earn it, through war and technological progress, but nowhere do I see it as given that the baby boomer generation and beyond should get it on a plate.

Interestingly, I think the standard of living that your counterparts get in China probably is much closer to US than you think. Yes, wages for trained mechanics are much lower (1000 US/ month or so), but living costs are about a 1/3 - 1/4 - so in the wash they are doing OK, and doing better every year

The impact of 2 billion people (China and India) joining the world economy since 10-15 years ago is dramatic, and will continue to be so. Best advise you can give your kids is learn to surf the waves, because standing still could mean you get washed away.

Anyway, back to your mewling and scratching.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

that means you have a right to more money than your counterparts in China? They have families too, they trained as hard as you too, they have self respect too.

We are not saying that we earned a right to make more money than some one else. We are tired of the concessions. We have been giving back pay and benefits for at least 15 years. We have earned the right to say enough is enough. Now go do some more home work on the great twu concessions. And then tell me how many pay cuts and concessions the boyz for China air took in the last 15 years.
I would venture to say probably zero concessions since the airline is subsidized by the Govt. Drink more Kool Aide and be glad you have a job
And frankly if the boyz in China are glad to have a job then give them the twu. 😀

 

[Bob Owens]

What's wrong with outsourcing maintenance to China?  We do it (Cathay Pacific) so does Boeing.  Good quality work

Seriously, where do you get this idea that because of your passport, because your parents happened to make love in Tulsa rather than Xiamen, that somehow that means you have a right to more money than your counterparts in China?  They have families too, they trained as hard as you too, they have self respect too.

By all means fight/ negotiate/ be more productive for a higher wage, but believe me, it isn't your birthright, only by earning it through negotiation and efficiency.  Your parents' generation did earn it, through war and technological progress, but nowhere do I see it as given that the baby boomer generation and beyond should get it on a plate.

Interestingly, I think the standard of living that your counterparts get in China probably is much closer to US than you think.  Yes, wages for trained mechanics are much lower (1000 US/ month or so), but living costs are about a 1/3 - 1/4 - so in the wash they are doing OK, and doing better every year

The impact of 2 billion people (China and India) joining the world economy since 10-15 years ago is dramatic, and will continue to be so.  Best advise you can give your kids is learn to surf the waves, because standing still could mean you get washed away.

Anyway, back to your mewling and scratching.

[post="264716"][/post]​

Well you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you are saying that we feel we should make more than a worker in China (although I dont recall anyone saying that), but on the other you are saying that when adjusted to local conditions they are making at least as much as us, and doing better every year.

The issue here is what standard of living should we expect for what we do?

I'm sure that someone in China can do whatever it is that you do , for a much lower price also. Should you just accept a China based wage because of the costs in China or should your wage be based upon what you do and where you do it?

If the company choses to do business in some locality then they should be willing to pay the normal rates in that locality. If they want to pay Chinese wages and enjoy Chinese costs then perhaps they should be content with Chinese revenue.

The fact is that the government and even most private corporations realize that labor costs will vary based upon location and accept that. NYC is perhaps one of the highest cost places to do business, and those same corporations that choose to do business in NYC, AA being an exception, pay their workers more. The fact is that those same areas where the costs are high generate more cash.


What our unions and the rest of the working people in this country do not understand is that as the airlines succeed in driving down our wages, and thus costs for the airlines, it makes it even easier for their employers to ship their jobs overseas. We already see the impact with cheap communications, every time you call for help with something on the phone it goes to Aisia, now with cheaper and cheaper transportation it will be even more cost effective to ship even more goods production overseas. The only thing that we will continue to make here is crops,and most of the farms are owned by large corporations too.

What they fail to see is that the cheap ticket to DisneyWorld today will eventually lead to losing their job in the long run.

Even those who feel they are "safe" are not. Even if the language barrier minimizes the risk of losing your job to China, most of the people in India speak English. So it doesnt matter what you do, chances are that someone in Asia can do it cheaper, and even if the work you do here has to be done here you have to remember that those who have been displaced because their job went to Asia are now potential replacements, at much lower rates, FOR YOU!

 

[peasant]

Bob,

Well, I am working for a Chinese airline in Asia, so yes, I am paid a China based wage... Yes, our salaries are lower. E.g. the CEO of Cathay Pacific salary was about 420,000 USD last year - for an airline that made probably more profit than all US airlines put together

The problem is that heavy maintenance is easy to do anywhere (unlike line maintenance) So, our mechanics & engineers in TAECO (Xiamen) are getting a decent salary & standard of living - but still in USD terms are very good value.

LM, yes we pay "to market" - which means our mechanics in SFO say, would make far more than an engineer in BKK, but that's life

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,

Well, I am working for a Chinese airline in Asia, so yes, I am paid a China based wage... Yes, our salaries are lower. E.g. the CEO of Cathay Pacific salary was about 420,000 USD last year - for an airline that made probably more profit than all US airlines put together

Well that could be because in a Communist country if they did not find some way of showing a profit in a controlled economy that the CEO might be shot or imprisoned. Besides how much competition does the airline really have in China?After all since in theory the people, through the state, own the airlines is there really any competition? Arent they competing with themselves?

The problem is that heavy maintenance is easy to do anywhere (unlike line maintenance) So, our mechanics & engineers in TAECO (Xiamen) are getting a decent salary & standard of living - but still in USD terms are very good value.

OK, but with the growth of your own market are you capable of delivering the same service for several thousand more aircraft from the US? And since technically we are still enemies, would you think that it would be a good strategic move on our part, even if it is cheaper? I mean if we sent the work to a small country like in Central or South America we could always send our military in if they werent doing what we like but now that you guys have nukes and ICBMs, and a Billion people thats not really an option is it?

 

[eolesen]

Besides how much competition does the airline really have in China?After all since in theory the people, through the state, own the airlines is there really any competition? Arent they competing with themselves?

Bob, where have you been for the past 10 years? China does allow some private ownership these days. Cathay, being HKG based, is almost entirely privately owned, which it was prior to HKG reverting back to the Chinese.

And since technically we are still enemies, would you think that it would be a good strategic move on our part, even if it is cheaper? I mean if we sent the work to a small country like in Central or South America we could always send our military in if they werent doing what we like but now that you guys have nukes and ICBMs, and a Billion people thats not really an option is it?

[post="265274"][/post]​

This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard from anyone on this board....

China may not be allies, but they're certainly not what I'd consider enemies. We don't have air service agreements with true enemies...

 

[mjk]

OK, but with the growth of your own market are you capable of delivering the same service for several thousand more aircraft from the US? And since technically we are still enemies, would you think that it would be a good strategic move on our part, even if it is cheaper? I mean if we sent the work to a small country like in Central or South America we could always send our military in if they werent doing what we like but now that you guys have nukes and ICBMs, and a Billion people thats not really an option is it?

[post="265274"][/post]​

This guy's unbelieveable.

Next he'll be accusing AA of treason for getting awarded the Shanghai route.

Bob, there's a whole world out there besides your career as a disgruntled airline mechanic in NYC. Get out there and live a little.

 

[FWAAA]

This guy's unbelieveable.

Next he'll be accusing AA of treason for getting awarded the Shanghai route.

[post="265320"][/post]​

Not quite treason, but he seemed plenty unhappy that AA was finally awarded rights to fly to China:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...=18859&hl=china

Truly unbelievable.

 

[scorpion]

Bob, where have you been for the past 10 years? China does allow some private ownership these days. Cathay, being HKG based, is almost entirely privately owned, which it was prior to HKG reverting back to the Chinese.
This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard from anyone on this board....

China may not be allies, but they're certainly not what I'd consider enemies. We don't have air service agreements with true enemies...

[post="265297"][/post]​

Why don't you ask any of the thousands of americans that have lost their jobs to the chinese and see if they don't consider them enemies. Call a spade a spade dude.

 

[peasant]

China allows higher foreign ownership of Chinese airlines than America does... 49%. LH has 49% of a cargo airline based in Shenzhen. The big 3 airlines (CZ/CA/MU) are all listed on overseas stock exchanges as well as HK - but yes, CAAC still has majority stake.

Cathay is an almost unique case in aviation, in that it is actually majority owned & controlled by foreigners (the Swire Group, who are a very old British trading house) as HK law says that as long as an airline is based in HK, it doesn't matter who owns it... So, if Fedex/ UA / BA whoever wanted to set up an airline in HK, they can

Scorpion, fair enough - but is now a very cheap, but well made spade! Manufacturing employment though is now DROPPING in China - because however fast we grow, productivity is growing faster still. So arguably it is also the industrial engineers they should hate, who are continually managing to do more with less, all around the world.

Certainly in CX we are pumping out far more seats with fewer people - in 1996 was 59 aircraft, 15,700 staff, now it is 89 aircraft, 15,000 people. Guess those who lost their jobs should consider the Americans who took their jobs by coming up with internet, or more efficient aircraft as enemies too...

 

[DECISION 2007]

Bob, there's a whole world out there besides your career as a disgruntled airline mechanic in NYC. Get out there and live a little.

Well stated.

 

[Bob Owens]

Former ModerAAtor,Apr 29 2005, 01:55 AM]
Bob, where have you been for the past 10 years? China does allow some private ownership these days. Cathay, being HKG based, is almost entirely privately owned, which it was prior to HKG reverting back to the Chinese.

Well private ownership does not equal Democracy. Isnt that what we as a Nation stand for? Or have our fathers fought to protect the right of others to own what God has provided?

This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard from anyone on this board....

Well obviously you havent read many of your own posts.

China may not be allies, but they're certainly not what I'd consider enemies. We don't have air service agreements with true enemies...

Well I'm a product of the 60s and we were taught, in no uncertain terms, that any totalitarian system, except those that were anti-Communist, was our enemy. So now you are saying that as long as a system allows some people to own things then the fact that they have no democratic, religious or political rights is no longer important?Are you saying that as long as we can make a buck none of those things matter?

 

[Bob Owens]

This guy's unbelieveable.

Next he'll be accusing AA of treason for getting awarded the Shanghai route.

Bob, there's a whole world out there besides your career as a disgruntled airline mechanic in NYC. Get out there and live a little.

[post="265320"][/post]​

Is that why you are here?

 

[Bob Owens]

peasant,Apr 29 2005, 10:05 AM]
China allows higher foreign ownership of Chinese airlines than America does... 49%. LH has 49% of a cargo airline based in Shenzhen. The big 3 airlines (CZ/CA/MU) are all listed on overseas stock exchanges as well as HK - but yes, CAAC still has majority stake.

Well why wouldnt they? Heck, let the foreigners throw their money into the airline then simply Nationize it again. Would not be the first time thats happened. A while ago I read an interesting article about how there were billions of dollars worth of Chinese bonds owned by some of the wealthiest American that were issued by Chaing Kai Shek(sic?). It was hoped that with the warming of relations that China would make good on them.

Cathay is an almost unique case in aviation, in that it is actually majority owned & controlled by foreigners (the Swire Group, who are a very old British trading house) as HK law says that as long as an airline is based in HK, it doesn't matter who owns it... So, if Fedex/ UA / BA whoever wanted to set up an airline in HK, they can

Scorpion, fair enough - but is now a very cheap, but well made spade! Manufacturing employment though is now DROPPING in China - because however fast we grow, productivity is growing faster still. So arguably it is also the industrial engineers they should hate, who are continually managing to do more with less, all around the world.

Well thats nothing new. The tactic is one thats been proven. Get the people away from an agrarian lifestyle and into the factories, once there and dependant on it keep increasing productivity, in addition to higher profits you have the added side benifit of double edged savings on labor costs. Now that they have lost their agrarian self sustaining lifestyle you can force them to compete against each other for the fewer and fewer jobs that remain.

Certainly in CX we are pumping out far more seats with fewer people - in 1996 was 59 aircraft, 15,700 staff, now it is 89 aircraft, 15,000 people. Guess those who lost their jobs should consider the Americans who took their jobs by coming up with internet, or more efficient aircraft as enemies too...

Well those numbers arent that great. Maybe its an improvement for Cathay but not compared to USbased airlines. You said 15000 employees for 89 aircraft. That comes out to 168 employees per aircraft, at AA I think we 819 aircraft with around 80,000 employees, or around 97 employees per aircraft.

 

[eolesen]

Well those numbers arent that great. Maybe its an improvement for Cathay but not compared to USbased airlines. You said 15000 employees for 89 aircraft. That comes out to 168 employees per aircraft, at AA I think we 819 aircraft with around 80,000 employees, or around 97 employees per aircraft.

[post="265813"][/post]​

Considering that Cathay's fleet is almost entirely widebodies, and that AA's is predominantly narrowbody, I'd expect them to have more employees per aircraft.

Look at it on a seat mile basis, or even just seats per departure basis, and they're far more efficient.