767 Envoy Class Reconfigured?

[Twicebaked]

Twice,
can I go get some lunch first and ponder your question or do I have to answer it right now? Seriously I want to think about it for a bit. It's a good question.

NO NOW!!!!

Just kidding.......whenever...

 

[Art at ISP]

Twice,

Let me try to answer the question if I may. First of all, above all else, I want RELIABLE service, and I would like to be able to have a REASONABLE expectation of arriving at my destination within an hour or so of schedule. The current performance on international flights is unacceptable at any price.

Secondly, I would expect that IF/WHEN something goes wrong, the airline has a staff dedicated to attending to and reaccommodating premium passengers, whether they be FF's or those who paid for premium service. I include FF's here because as Boeing Boy said, folks like me have earned some of the upgrades we receive since we do historically pay higher prices, and much more often. The disconnect at US is that they either don't realize or don't care that such a small percentage of customers contributes such a large share of the revenue pie. Couple that with the fact that they are currently unreliable, running 10%-30% on time on many PHL flights, and when you are affected like this many customer service agents treat you like it's your fault there's a problem, and one is almost afraid to book on US. One of our members was told by a Chairmans supervisor that he was "wasting his breath" when he insisted (nicely I may add) on being reaccommodated on another airline. I would also expect a reliable web site (not even close more than a year after it went live), and accurate information from FLIFO--for both agents and customers. There is also no excuse for a reservations system which is still so broken many agents couldn't help customers if they wanted to.

Now, as for on board, I would expect US to provide on board service comparable to other airlines serving similar markets, and at similar prices to the others. Today they are way off the mark in all instances.

I recently flew AA on a domestic and international itinerary, all in F and C, and for about half of what US wanted for a similar itinerary all in coach. The JFK-MIA segment featured a full meal service (at 3 hours block time US gives you a snack basket). MIA-SDQ, which was considered international, managed hot towels, a full hot meal service and just about anything else you could imagine, in a 1 hr 50 minute flight. The return SDQ-JFK featured a hot meal as well, but served in courses, and a sundae for dessert. All flights featured linen, china and glass.

I won't even get into CO domestic F, but I will tell you that not only would I be willing to pay a premium for premium service, I would do it regularly, if it was priced competitively. As I indicated elsewhere, I just spent about $9000 in air travel over the past week, 90% of which is personal travel not reimbursed by my company. $6000 went to CO for 2 business first tickets to Milan, returning from Rome. CO's product is regarded as one of the best in the industry, so if you want to know what comprises true premium service try B/F across the pond. Now compare that to the current US product, which priced out at around $7000 EACH, and I think you can see my point.

About $1K more went to CO, with the balance going to AA.

Yes upgrades are important, but most of us more than pay our way too. We expect COMPARABLE service for a COMPARABLE price. Today-US isn't even close. Coupled with the operational problems and customer service issues, and there is no compelling reason to go out of one's way to fly US.

I remain hopeful that someone in Tempe will wake up and take action, but I am beginning to believe they don't care, and are caretaking until a sale or new merger can be announced.

 

[USstew23]

The one thing about the 767 that I thought seriously should have been visited is the mid "dry" galley. That area is useless besides housing some water/wine and trash carts or duty free. If they reworked the cabins a bit (which we know will NEVER happen) that area could house some seats that would allow us to maintain 24 seats. What the hell would I know as a flight attendant though. 🙄

OH NO!!!!!!!!! Now look what you've done, you've given them the idea to rip out the dry galley and shove in more seats. The 767 is about the only decent plane left in this fleet (along with the 737's which I never thought I'd see) that these fools haven't mangled. Now the only question is since 6 seats are being lost that means the 767 will only hold 197 thus losing another f/a position.

 

[as the prop turns]

I am going to answer my own question....

I will get s&*t for this, but....

One "Upgrade" would be younger more pleasant flight attendants.

Not that I have anything against "older" flight attendants, but most of our international girls are worn out and miserable.

Funny you should say that. Several years ago, when our Envoy product went from superb to starting to slide, there were surveys put on the international flights. One F/C pax replied: " You need older wines and younger flight attendants. " The senior mamas are looking ratty. It's ok to have age on you, but not acceptable if you don't take care of yourself.

 

[Travelpro72]

Boy oh boy did you two just open pandoras box. Your ages discriminating and what is wrong with being in your job for so many years blah, blah, blah. I don't know why some of our flight attendants let themselves go like many have. I know we are disgruntled and many are po'd at the company or whatever but WHAT does that have to do with your person? Why some guys don't wear undershirts, chicks that can't fit into the dress, tights with slippers and the Mr. Rogers sweater...ugggg I could go on and on. It makes YOU look like trash. It's bad enough our tired, ragged airplanes look like $h!t, I'll be damned If I will blend right in.

 

[Travelpro72]

OH NO!!!!!!!!! Now look what you've done, you've given them the idea to rip out the dry galley and shove in more seats. The 767 is about the only decent plane left in this fleet (along with the 737's which I never thought I'd see) that these fools haven't mangled. Now the only question is since 6 seats are being lost that means the 767 will only hold 197 thus losing another f/a position.

While I am no fan of the way they have butchered our airbus and 757 EFLOPS I have always thought that area by row 12 and the lavs was horrible. It's so damn narrow you can't even get two folks around there trying to use the bathroom. While one side on a/c left is semi functional with it housing water, f/c wine and trash/duty free carts the other side is a whole different story. It houses blankets and broken, busted up old cardboard bassinets. It's loaded with junk and I believe a folding cart still If I remember correctly. That area would only add about 3 more sets of 3 seats across. It would open the cabin up. Oh wait, where would they get overhead bins to put there. I'm pretty sure the ones we have are not made anymore. I hate pushing the carts through that area. AND with that being said we'd be sure of KEEPING our 6th F/A. I see that they are moving the closets per the 767 diagram to the front of f/c instead of between the current row 4 and 5. We'll see I guess.

 

[SegmentKing]

Hey, I know you'd like his direct #, but unfortunately I am not going to offer that private information to a complete stranger.

Ask one of your buddies, if not, try finding it on eBay. There's a thought! Until you learn respect and common courtesy to other's, my words won't become any less bold, sarcastic or friendly!

OOO.. must be nice to have his "direct" line. If I need to get in touch with a buddy that is a VP I just call the switchboard and he answers.

hmmmmm...

Oh, King, something you fail to recognize --- United STILL has a premium economy offering (which would benefit people like you) and a Top-Tier First Class cabin, which most US Airlines have abandoned on TATL flights!

Regarding "Premum" services -- how about something that is at least as nice as United, or looks like it.

this picture is a SNACK on a UA transcon...

and here's more from other carriers:

Here is a domestic first breakfast on Delta:

and another domestic meal.. a Delta First Class SNACK that is bigger than US's "dinner"

=============================================
compare this to the slop we're serving our pax in the air now.... and how the menu hasn't changed in oh.. a year? two years? I used to fly United 2 - 3 times a week (multiple segments a trip), one of my normals being FLL/ORD, always in F, yet on every flight there was a diff option... United had 6 - 8 variations, but if I left ORD to FLL on the 6PM flt on a tuesday, then had another ORD-FLL on Friday, the meal choices were different.

 

[SS255]

Twice,

I remain hopeful that someone in Tempe will wake up and take action, but I am beginning to believe they don't care, and are caretaking until a sale or new merger can be announced.

Art, as long as they keep making money they will never "get it." Enjoy CO and AA!!!

 

[Travelpro72]

Looking at those pictures I find it almost IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to justify our service and situation we're in here. It's downright pathetic and I'd leave as a FF too. It's a sad, sad state of affairs here folks. If I paid full fare to fly transatlantic and because of Usairways inability to do ANYTHING right had to eat a coach meal and sip my wine out of a picnic cup there'd be hell to pay. If I spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to reach status that I got upgraded and was offered what we offer as service and a product there'd again be HELL to pay. This is TOTAL BS. I LOVE when I hear a f/a say (and there are many) that these passengers don't pay for anything and we lost a lot as employees, yada, yada, yada I usually shut them up real quick. I say, "Yeah well regardless of what YOU think it was the company that did it to you and not the customer". "Certainly not our FF's that kept this piece of $h!t floating". Nothing to usually say after that.

 

[Travelpro72]

Looking at those pictures I find it almost IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to justify our service and situation we're in here. It's downright pathetic and I'd leave as a FF too. It's a sad, sad state of affairs here folks. If I paid full fare to fly transatlantic and because of Usairways inability to do ANYTHING right had to eat a coach meal and sip my wine out of a picnic cup there'd be hell to pay. If I spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to reach status that I got upgraded and was offered what we offer as service and a product there'd again be HELL to pay. This is TOTAL BS. I LOVE when I hear a f/a say (and there are many) that these passengers don't pay for anything and we lost a lot as employees, yada, yada, yada I usually shut them up real quick. I say, "Yeah well regardless of what YOU think it was the company that did it to you and not the customer". "Certainly not our FF's that kept this piece of $h!t floating". Nothing to usually say after that.

 

[Chicken or Beef??]

Tech Boy,


As I stated in another post, I have spent $9K on air tickets in the last 8 days. $6900 to CO and $2100 to AA. Notice who didn't get a penny. I have put up with an inferior product, and in some cases exhorbitant fares for a long time--the operational nonsense which is occurring now is what put me over the edge.

I feel sorry for the fine front line employees of US Airways, who have to continually apologize for the product and the service...it doesn't need to be this way.

It's ashame management just doesn't get it! I am a front line employee and just gave $7K to Air France for 2 MIA-BCN / ATH-MIA (Business Class) Tickets. We actually had the best connections with the best fares but I experience the delays and shortages everyday. Why would I subject myself and my partner to the agravation of flying US, especially on MY vacation?

 

[SegmentKing]

i'm glad to see that US isn't the only airline serving F drinks in Plastic!

 

[TechBoy]

While it's something of a generalization, the truth is that the average FF does pay for those seats through the higher average fares they pay. The latest I've seen comes from UA, but it gives an indication of how much the average FF is worth to the bottom line - 8% of UA's passengers generate 36% of UA's revenue. No "what are they really saying" "revenue premium" phrases - $36 of every $100 in passenger revenue comes from that 8%.

So the question really is how much does the airline value that small percentage of passengers? Without their dollars, the airline disappears (picture the 2nd quarter results if revenue dropped even 15% or about $450 million - US would have lost money in the historically strongest quarter).

In effect, those FF's have paid for their "free" upgrade on the installment plan every time they buy a ticket. They stop getting that "free" upgrade often enough and they take their dollars elsewhere.

This stat is thrown around quite a bit by the "I need my upgrade" crowd and I'm sure it's accurate (or at least close), but it doesn't tell all the story. The way that a small percentage of UA customers produce so much revenue is by actually buying premium fares -- F/A/C/D/Z and maybe some full Y as well. While these VFFers upgrade occasionally, they are more likely to actually buy the premium seat. Other VFFers may fly a lot of miles, but if they are buying Q/V/W/S/T fares most of the time, they are not providing a revenue premium over the Kettles. So only some of the VFFers have "paid" for their upgrades. While it makes sense to keep loyal customers (and offer them upgrades when available), it does not make sense to design your premium cabin capacity around them.

My own situation is a good example of this difference. About 5-6 years ago, I bought a lot of C/D to Europe and Y/B transcons and spent about $75k on United. Today, I fly the same number of miles on United, but most are domestic E/H/Q and spend around $20-25k. A good, loyal customer in both situations, but very different situations.

 

[Art at ISP]

Tech Boy,

You have a point, but a smart airline management would rather have your $20-25K than the $200-$300 a year from the Kettles, yet US appears to favor the Kettles.

I will also guess that a good percentage of the $20-25K you spend is actually profitable for UA.

The entire fare/yield management system is broken and no one has the guts to fix it.

There is no place for $99 transcon fares any more--they are not economically viable. If the majors would just say let those people go to the LCC's instead of matching, they'd see higher AVERAGE fares, and more likely profits. The world has changed. People are no longer willing to be gouged. We (VFF's) are sick and tired of subsidizing the Kettles.

Upgrades are simply a low cost (no cost if the seat is empty anyway) way of saying "thank you for your loyalty, we value you as a customer". The problem here is US doesn't care about its most loyal customers.

 

[EMBFA]

What do YOU want in a "premium" service.

I think alot of our F/As don't realize how sub-par our product is, which makes it worse. I don't think they even have an idea of what flight attendants on other airlines do, the service levels, what a real first class service it is, what it's like to work with modern galley equiptment, inflight entertainment, crew rest areas etc, working with a large crew on a large widebody etc. It's not really thier fault, alot of them never leave Pittsburgh, and don't travel except for thier trips on our relic 737s. Domestically, fine, we are about on par with a low cost carrier in the 80s, it works for some markets like Florida or Vegas, not so much at others.

International is a different story, you just can't cheap out on longer flights like that, particularly if you are charging the same as your competitions for a business class cabin. (Envoy Class is first class, it's a business class product- alot of our folks aren't aware of that or what the difference is. However our business class does not compare to U.S. airline intl. business class, it is not even on par with most domestic transcon first). If they sold it as Ecomony Plus, fine. But selling it at business class prices and providing nothing close to it is not fair. If they are upgrades they earned it through spending money on multiple trips. If they paid full fare then they should not be subjected to our joke just because we now fancy ourselves an 'LCC'. It's not fair to those of us to have to stand there and deliver it either. Especially with the disasters lately.

Next time you travel, jump on Continental to Europe and see the difference. Check out THIER ETOPs 757s. If you're flying to L.A. take United's P.S. service out of JFK. Hell, take JetBlue somewhere to see what a modern, innovative 'low cost' economy product is. I promise you it will be an eye-opener and you won't be so quick to our customers whiners.

Our flight attendants are run-down too. I agree that even if you hate your job, your company, and your lot in life, do you hate yourself enough to act and dress like some of ours do? We have so many great F/As here but it saddens me that alot of the bad ones work on the transatlantic flights. I worked D with my friend as CSD, with an awesome E a couple of weeks ago (one of those 1:30 am re-crewings). One of the passengers asked us if we were on loan from another airline- we thought it was a pretty great compliment for these days. He said the lady on the way must have worked the flight to get to a funeral! 🙂