AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[nostradamus]

Your point please sir?

 

[nostradamus]

John Prater ALPA quotes

"When I explained the facts, they often responded, “I didn’t know that.â€￾

CLT BASED PRATER

"I’ve personally lived through numerous mergers and, regardless of the pain of a new seniority list"

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR LONGEVITY VS SENIORITY LOSS, YOU HAD NONE PRATER

"my fellow pilots and I have managed to separate the merger wars from our contract negotiations"

YOU HAD YOURS JOHN, YOU LOST NOTHING.

"Despite the failure of your leaders to find a mutual agreement during the seniority integration"

THEY WERE ALPA, YOUR ALPA PRATER YOU ARE DISHONEST CROOKS

Failure to achieve consensual agreement between the East and West union leaders to negotiate a contract with more than parity would be a shame for us.

SHAME ON ALPA FOR MANY YEARS, YOU ARE TOO LATE.

"a disaster for the families of US Airways."

WHERE WERE YOU ALPA BEFORE, YOUR CONCERN IS SELFISHLY MOTIVATED NOW.

"In Unity,
Captain John Prater
President"

Remember your independent union, it was fine when it fit your greedy purpose, your unity has a short history.

Independent Association of Continental Pilots


One more thing John Prater you are as phony as your hairline.

 

[hp_fa]

Question. Do you think date of hire was fair for the Flight Attendants? A short answer would be appreciated.

Under the totality of the circumstances, no. However, AFA's rules were different so what was fair and what was right were two different things.

Was that short enough?

 

[SkyRat]

John Prater ALPA quotes

One more thing John Prater you are as phony as your hairline.

Nostra... I have to admit that I agree with you on this one. Never though I will say that! But man we are on the same boat NOW!

Now PRATER, follow ALPA by-Laws! Defend, protect, and present!!!

Or UZAPA will be here soon!

And "they" will defend, protect and present the AWARD! Amazing Nos? Right?

Regards,
GL

 

[767jetz]

The process was steered into the ditch when the principle of seniority=DOH was abandoned.

That is your opinion. It is only shared by a small minority of ALPA pilots.

 

[nostradamus]

Under the totality of the circumstances, no. However, AFA's rules were different so what was fair and what was right were two different things.

Was that short enough?

Yes, thank you.

 

[nostradamus]

Nostra... I have to admit that I agree with you on this one. Never though I will say that! But man we are on the same boat NOW!

Now PRATER, follow ALPA by-Laws! Defend, protect, and present!!!

Or UZAPA will be here soon!

And "they" will defend, protect and present the AWARD! Amazing Nos? Right?

Regards,
GL

Your whistling in the dark is getting louder and more high pitched.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Prater's not going to present anything this month, his last "fact" pretty much spells it out. More fiddle diddling around. Lets just close up shop on this forum and come back later next year, something may happen by then. Maybe.

ALPA does suck, its to bad USAPA's goal is to screw me over. If it weren't for that I may have actually contemplated sending a card.

 

[EastUS]

People have been telling you and the AWA MEC over-and-over that there needs to be a compromise to the Nicolau Award

See, that's where you're brain-dead. The AWA MEC doesn't "need" to compromise on anything. The Nicolau Award came about as a result of a med/arb process agreed to by both sides.

"See, that's where you're brain-dead." Well put...and DO tell us all the very first moment that you're able to take ANY East seat...talk about "brain dead" = zero adaptation to actual reality on any level.

Keep up the ranting..or perhaps actually even get the Wicked Witch's broomstick...and, in any case?: = see how fast the Great and Powerfull Prater gives you the St Nic presents...sheesh...how amazingly clueless, and utterly oblivious to ANY aspect of reality Hmmm...1800 Westies...3 thousand plus easties ready to dump Alpo at the drop of a hat...I "wonder" how this will all play out..ROTFLMAO.

How many months now?...as you all/AWA await confirmation of your "Righteous Position" from Alpo?..and you yet cling to blustering, banality, and even printed magic dust that would shame Tinkerbelle into a blushing fit...and you STILL do NOT "get it".

Good thing that you guys are simply now good solely for amusement's sake at your incessant, babbling rhetoric...or I'd have to otherwise consider actual sympathy for your collective insanity.

How's it actually going out there? Has Prater given you your St Nic presents?...perhaps a Heart?, Courage?...better yet in this case= a Brain? ANYONE out there willing to even consider growing up , even a tiny bit? I'd give some slight suggestion that should you wish to become "one big happy family", with people who've outlived you and certainly flown many years more than you can currently even imagine...that you might start with something other than "Nyaah, Nyaah"..."we got your seats"/"The arbitrator said"...and any other versions of adolescent "Waah"...and "Waaah" is about all I'm seeing here from you guys of late...wonder why that is?😉 Here I've heard nothing for months but how the East is full of naught but crybabies..who could NEVER, under Alpo's bright sun, do anything but cry/whine/etc...after all?=you guys had your "righteousness" and the St Nic fantasy.

Perhaps you're amongst the people still holding their breath.

Isn't it Alpo's charter to "Present and Defend the Award"? WHY isn't that actually happening? Perhaps it's time for the esteemed MEC village idiots on YOUR side to actually try to THINK😉 Good luck...I understand that one of your "Alpo Warriors" has all of, gasp, pause for properly reverent awe and astonishment to to recede...a whole 15 HUNDRED commercial airline hours...it must be tough for such an utter twit to even pretend to think like a career aviator. Your top clown's a classic case study all by himself= wanted another union before the merger...now is but another obvious "politician" who'll clearly now kiss Alpo's arse with wide open lips to keep his BS "job" going...all in all? = a pretty "Righteous" bunch for certain😉 No one could possibly be so utterly dense as to wholly disregard the obvious with these people...I'd hope.

Alpo's naught but a refuge for the sorts that don't like performing any usefull, actual work...and simply wish that they were "real" politicans..but they first put on pilot costumes by mistake, or for wholesale lack of more pronounced, and sale-able political abilities in the larger world.

BTW: Here's your Great and Powerfull Alpoid Prater's latest brilliant thought: "I believe you can successfully reach a solution between your pilot groups." You've simply gotta' laugh at just how truly usefull Alpo actually is😉 I mean seriously folks...the same idiotic/dysfunctional buncha' total fools that bred and birthed the Nic war..now have NOTHING to offer to fix anything😉 Words truly fail me here..other than Dump Alpo..but I must admit that those hopeless fools are a never ceasing source of amusement😉

There's apparently a rather substantial difference between resolution/arbitration/whatever...and the actual workings of the Real World. Given that many of you are very young...this must come as a shock.

Keep fighting the "Good Fight"..amongst which concerns seems to be seriously striving to ensure that your east "Brother/Sister"..excuse me while I puke at your fake Alpo BS , pilots keep working at less pay rates, untill you "noble" sorts get to steal their seats. You miss the point that we don't care about any of your totally disgusting BS as much as we do the seniority issue...PERIOD. You've, personally done wonders for making such as myself wish to NEVER fly with your sad, childish sort...and I could quit tomorrow and most certainly not starve anyway😉.....could you?😉 Well..take a better look at "The East" when contriving your fantasies.

"See, that's where you're brain-dead."

Ummm..or is it "Brain dead" to suggest to your sort Prater's latest fantasy? = "I believe you can successfully reach a solution between your pilot groups."

You Alpoids should collectively appear on stage in LAS as a comedy act😉

 

[EastUS]

That is your opinion. It is only shared by a small minority of ALPA pilots.

Ummm..DO refresh my/all presents' memory as to just exactly WHY TF we/ANY should care about:

1) Your self ascribed/all knowing knowledge as to things Alpo. As I recall?=You were personally too utterly cowardly to even go down into the USAirways crewroom with your vaunted Alpo uncles..who love you so much, as you'ld have us all imagine, as you...rather pathetically imagine

2) Alpo itself?

Hate to break your heart kid...but you personally ain't nuthin' at all to Alpo, and your absurd "loyalty" is sadly misplaced. Those scumbags at Alpo Nat'l only care about THEMSELVES...and you ain't one of that blessed, incestuous inner circle.....much as you clearly hope/pray/eventually wish to be......get a grip and GROW UP😉 You and I went through a "discussion" as to your piloting =OK...it isn't what you're particularly good at, and you prefer politics...that's a personal problem son..it isn't evidence of the overall moral failings of your "peers"..lol..that you would wish all here to believe😉

"Trick" question for you? = WTF hasn't Prater and the Punks, between sets on stage, actaully certified "the list"...much less "defended" it thus far?😉 Here's a small clue: None of these are men of any character, nor seriously held beliefs..save for themselves, and their phoney-baloney "jobs".

PS: If any/all constitutes any "personal attack"? = The amazing truth is that I've no actual personal need for keyboard dancing, and could actually care less if I'm ever allowed to again post here😉 Guess I'll never qualify as any "politician"😉..Thank Allmighty God.

 

[prechilill]

EVERY EAST PILOT SHOULD READ THIS POST FOR THEIR OWN GOOD

Just for kicks I perused the decertifyalpa.org website and after getting through the popup which begged for money, I found this latest release. I actually find the history informative, but unfortunately USAPA is a little short on candor. For example:
ALPA National to East US Airways Pilots -- ``Buzz Off'';
National Association Abandons East Pilots, Seniority

ESSINGTON, Pa.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--On the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, USAPA was made aware that the East US Airways pilots have suffered yet another assault on their careers. The latest blow was delivered by Paul Rice, ALPA executive VP and attorney Bruce York, ALPA’s director of representation. In meetings with east US Airways pilot negotiators, they let it be known that previous promises of protections for the original US Airways pilots were off the table.

Interesting, but hardly surprising.

The written report stated that the national association insists on, “a transition to implementation...†The report went on to state that, “It appears also that their desire is to have this transition occur in a fairly short time frame (1-2 years…).†It goes without saying that the east US Airways pilots will not participate in the “implementation†of this deeply flawed “award†in any way shape or form. Well, that's going to be a problem for the East for several reasons. One, ALPA can just substitute for the AWOL East. Secondly, implied in every contract is a covenant of good faith and fair dealing. The East is bound to its own obligations and their good faith participation is not discretionary. The law recognizes legal remedies and equitable remedies against those found to be in breach of express or implied covenants. One of the most powerful equitable remedies a court possesses is contempt. Remember Rich LaVoy and his APA gang? Exactly. It can happen and if the East keeps up with their pledge to thumb their nose at Lady Justice, then there will be consequences. If ALPA doesn't do something, then I and some select AWA pilots will do something. Another F/O and I went lawyer shopping over the last two weeks and all three firms verified exactly what I just said - I as an individual pilot can bring an actionable claim against individual East members for their willful breach. If you want to take that as a threat, well, I guess it is. Keep screwing around and there will be consequences ala Rich Lavoy. There will be a mob of fellow AWA pilots wanting to join in as plaintiffs. But after the information coming out from Mowrey and Garland, it certainly appears that the end game is near for the East antics. Junebug has been right all along. The seeds of this “tortured logic†arbitration decision were sewn in 1991 by a decision to strip date-of-hire from ALPA merger policy. Two large ALPA pilot groups, fearful of merging with a more senior pilot workforce at TWA, lead the initiative and substituted an incomprehensible list of “goals†in its place. "Incomprehensible" is a matter of opinion. For the rest of the piloting profession the list of goals are quite clear.

USAPA has determined that seniority is a self-defining term. True statement. Accordingly, the USAPA Constitution requires the merging of seniority lists by “date-of-hire†and no other methodology. That's fine too. Just understand that your requirement applies prospectively. If Lee is telling you that you can rewrite that which is not rewritable, then you'd better get another attorney. Somehow, though, I suspect he told you the correct rule - that whatever you do you cannot undo Nic - and therefore you can do nothing which repudiates Nic or operates to change Nic. I guess you just want to keep that little tidbit quiet and then deal with it later. Wow, you guys are already starting to act like ALPA National!

USAPA has received more than 2300 requests from both east and west US Airways pilots to request a representation election from the National Mediation Board. OK. Election request documents continue to arrive. Good. A request count of 50% of eligible pilots, plus one, is required for an election to be held. True Statement. During the follow-on election a simple majority of voting pilots will determine the new collective bargaining agent. True Statement. USAPA anticipates that it will begin representing the US Airways pilots in the first quarter of 2008. Hmmm. That's where you step into the alligator pond. You see, another little skeleton in the USAPA closet (even though your house hasn't even been built) is that you need to fairly represent all pilots. Now I've heard the Chipster's ruminations on how difficult it would be for the West to prove a DFR, but there are several problems with the idea that the West would be stuck with a cram down. First, USAPA is a successor in interest as the bargaining agent for the US Airways pilots. That means USAPA inherits the obligations of the former bargaining agent and we know quite well what those obligations are - they're contract obligations signed by your very own pilots to adhere to a process identified as the ALPA merger policy. Where a lot of you Easties stop short is your belief that the title of the document controls substantive rights and obligations. Au contraire. The naming of the document is merely to reference the contents because it's the contents which are what bind you, not the d@mn name. If you'd like, I'll cite the case law spelling that exact rule out. So what you need to understand is that it's the contents which spell out rights, obligations, and expectations which travel from ALPA to USAPA. The reason? Because down at the bottom of that document are the signatures of your bargaining agents. Therefore, you were bound then, you are bound now, and you will be bound until you have completed performance on that contract. End of story.

USAPA is the new union designed to represent the interests of US Airways Pilots and no other. That's fine, so long as you honor your obligations. This new union has been designed “from the pilot up,†to deliver competent, accountable, responsive and efficient representation for the US Airways pilots. Fine, just make sure that you're getting competent legal advice and that you follow that advice, otherwise it will get extremely ugly very quickly for you. Because USAPA represents only US Airways pilots, the conflicts of interest associated with a large national association will be avoided. USAPA notes that the best-compensated pilots in the domestic passenger transport business, AirTran, Southwest and American, are all represented by company-specific unions. Now we've finally reached a sensible argument/observation. It only took a thousand words to get to it! The American pilots, represented by the Allied Pilots Association, were previously affiliated with ALPA and were assisted in their departure from the association by the same law firm assisting the US Airways pilots today.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Fact

As far as ALPA national is concerned, the East pilots are f#$%*d.

Sent in your card yet?

 

[SkyRat]

Fact

As far as ALPA national is concerned, the East pilots are f#$%*d.

Sent in your card yet?

Mine's in... Prater... Defend, Protect, and PRESENT!...

Or UZAPA is coming..

 

[Piedmont1984]

Fact

When ALPA merger policy was changed in 1991, it was not done for the sake of principle, it was not done to strengthen merger policy language and it was not done to benefit "the other guy". It was opportunism at work. With the specter of someone having to merge with a very senior (using the old definition of senior=DOH) group of TWA pilots, a larger group of younger pilots were able to remove DOH from merger policy language.

Fact

Those who changed the policy were a younger generation of pilots. They had little invested in terms of longevity, so they had very little interest in relying on DOH as a bedrock principle of merger policy. It did not comport with their "career expectations", so they simply got rid of it.

Fact

The vast majority of all other craft unions use DOH as the corner stone for merger integration.

Fact

AWA pilots use DOH as the sole means of establishing seniority within their own ranks.

Fact

Airline pilots have bemoaned the fact that lateral mobility does not exist within our profession, that a national seniority list is the answer and that such a list would, by definition, depend on a national DOH to determine seniority.

Fact

This crisis was unavoidable. We had no choice but to go down the road of negotiation/arbitration. The other option would have been to refuse arbitration. Either way we would have had a crisis.

Fact

ALPA ceased to be a real union some time ago.

 

[Bear96]

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Posted on: Dec 3 2002, 02:42 AM
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"C### thanks for the explanation. It still seems to me though that should U go down this road they will be in violation of the CBAs, the same as if they decided not to pay everyone the rates called for in the contracts. But I suppose a company in U's condition could get away with that somehow.

UAL's pension funds are not yet "distressed," at least the F/A fund. According to statements released by UAL about two months ago, and verified by the AFA/UAL Retirement Committee, UAL has been making enough payments to date so that that fund's assets exceed its liabilities."

"Certainly next year could be a different story though."

Your vendetta against C### has a long history. How is the flight attendant business going for you lately

You, my personal stalker, are talking about personal vendettas. Good one.

The above post shows a "vendetta against C###" how? Looks like part of a civilized conversation with information, questions and opinions being exchanged in a respectful manner (which is clearly an alien concept to you).

I wouldn't know about the F/A business. How is the F/A business going for you?