AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[Piedmont1984]

I wish you guys luck; I really do because from the West perspective we didn't relish a protracted fight against ALPA to do what they were supposed to do. USAPA's survival depends upon their assumption of ALPA's duty which is to protect and defend the Nicolau award. If they so much as flinch in that duty, they're toast.

The problem these days is that we as a society have completely lost the concept of right and wrong. Instead, we bury ourselves in periods, commas, the definition of "is," etc. When the list came out I knew we had the law squarely in our corner but the question remained as to what ALPA would do with respect to what is right and what is wrong. The East immediately went into hippie style disruption ala 1968 Democratic Convention and then what does Prater do? He shelves right and wrong and thinks he can craft a solution out of thin air. Instead, he stepped into a quagmire and his failed vision only made things worse for all pilots in this profession. Much like Vietnam and Iraq, Prater has taken ALPA into a swamp that is much deeper and far more treacherous than originally thought. But, just as Nixon figured it out in 1972 and it appears that the Shrub is finally getting it in 2007, it seems that Prater is figuring out the obvious that he just needs to get out. Hence, the ruminations seeping out of certain East players that the hour is close at hand in which "Right" will be taken down from the shelf in Herndon and placed front and center in this dispute that never should have been.

I agree with one thing you say, this is a question of right and wrong; but because the law may be on your side, it does not follow that you are in the right.

The larger question in this dispute is whether merger policy should have been watered down and obfuscated in the first place because most of the younger pilots decided to throw the fewer gray beards in the profession to the wolves.

The law once prohibited women from voting and provided blacks with far less.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The bills for USAPA really haven't even started yet. You're going to need a heck of a lot more than 300 donations. That number actually shocked me because I would have guessed that the number was four to five times that. The real problem for USAPA is that it is founded upon a premise that is untenable - you can't "do away" with Nicolau any more than ALPA can. Furthermore, unlike AWAPA where there really was a near success, USAPA is entering an arena in which the law is squarely against them, there are 1800 AWA pilots ready and chomping at the bit to destroy USAPA, and finally there's that 800 pound gorilla in Herndon that will want its dues money back. You're set up for a slaughter and the immediate cram down of Nicolau. So, that's why I do wish the East all the near term success possible. For karma reasons, however, I think it's best that the West just let the events unfold and the reason is because we have the law on our side and the moral high ground. There is no need for us to lift a finger when the advesary is headed straight into a dead end.

By the way, do you suppose Russ Webber's motion to forward the list is his idea alone? Or perhaps is he only the guy drafting the motion - ergo he was asked to do this by others on the EC??? Food for thought.

If it is dead without ALPA, bring it on. I have said before, which you seem to completely ignore, there are many pilots on board USAPA solely for the purpose of seeing ALPA removed from the property. The rest can play itself out. I personally don't care one way or the other about the Nicolau list. Either way, it works for me. But the overiding fact is, ALPA is worried. Why? IMO. Since ALPA will be a party to the upcoming election, my guess is the same NMB rules apply to them as they do us. When USAPA is elected, ALPA would have to wait a year to try and force a new election.

So USAPA has at least a year as the bargaining representative. In order for ALPA to win back enough support it will have to have some very major changes in the way business is conducted. Number one for me is, did you vote for Prater? I didn't. I didn't even know he was running for office to represent me. Much less be given a vote to elect him.

As for the bills. Don't confuse the present with the future. All the threatened lawsuits to me are just that, threats. When the new union is elected there will be all the USAirways pilots on board with dues money. Yea, I know, the west won't be paying anything. But just saw the proposal on the closed shop amendment. It's a little different than ALPA's.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You're going to need upwards of 95% support for your wildcat tactics, otherwise the company will have a field day picking off individuals like a sniper perched in a tree. And even if you did somehow muster enough troops who are more brave than intelligent, then consider that the company has the blueprint from the Rich Lavoy/APA fiasco. Either way, you're stuck and the reason is because you refuse to hold the line with the 57,000 other pilots in this profession.

Only one thing stands in the way of your blueprint. After APA escrowed about half of the money owed to AA. The negotiations for a new contract became mired. The "fine" was dealt with through collective bargaining. So bring it on. If the company wants to put this place together, everything will be dependent on a new CBA. Negotiated by USAPA.

As for the 57,000 pilots. You mean total ALPA membership I suppose? Each group with their own agenda. ALPA National couldn't pull them together even if it wanted to under the current Constitution and ByLaws. It's an impotent tiger. With a befuddled leader.

 

[ableoneable]

I agree with one thing you say, this is a question of right and wrong; but because the law may be on your side, it does not follow that you are in the right.

The larger question in this dispute is whether merger policy should have been watered down and obfuscated in the first place because most of the younger pilots decided to throw the fewer gray beards in the profession to the wolves.

The law once prohibited women from voting and provided blacks with far less.

Okay, so you really believe that it would have been "right" for furlouged pilots to eventually displace working pilots?

The "conditions and restrictions" in the east proposal were a sham. They provided that any furloghee who was recalled, and who remained employed for twelve months after recall, would then be protected from furlough.

Because ecenomic cycles are never as short as twelve months this would mean that in the next downturn the former east furloughs would have been employed and most of the westies would be on the streets. This is "right" in your book?

This is the reason most of the pilots at other carriers think that your arguments about how you were "morally wronged" by the Nicolau award are complete B.S.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Okay, so you really believe that it would have been "right" for furlouged pilots to eventually displace working pilots?

The "conditions and restrictions" in the east proposal were a sham. They provided that any furloghee who was recalled, and who remained employed for twelve months after recall, would then be protected from furlough.

Because ecenomic cycles are never as short as twelve months this would mean that in the next downturn the former east furloughs would have been employed and most of the westies would be on the streets. This is "right" in your book?

This is the reason most of the pilots at other carriers think that your arguements about how you were "morally wronged" by the Nicolau award are complete B.S.

No...I did not say it would have been right. You are referencing "conditions and restrictions". Some of the issues therein are difficult to address, but I think solutions were available. In the case of furloughees perhaps actual time in service could be a solution. Perhaps some other approach is feasable.

But the underlying principle, what is right, fair and equitable is and should always have remained - DOH.

 

[ableoneable]

No...I did not say it would have been right. You are referencing "conditions and restrictions". Some of the issues therein are difficult to address, but I think solutions were available. In the case of furloughees perhaps actual time in service could be a solution. Perhaps some other approach is feasable.

But the underlying principle, what is right, fair and equitable is and should always have remained - DOH.

That is, however, the final solution offered by the east. The east felt that the twelve month restriction was as generous as they could afford to be.

How can you say that DOH is "right fair and equitable" when clearly it is not. If you were hired in 1990 and no other pilot was hired until 2000 does that ten year span mean anything on your list? No. You are one number senior to him. DOH is only used to establish "relative" seniority on your own list. It has no other meaning. The fact that pilot A has ten more years LOS than pilot B is meaningless.

 

[P51Pilot]

That is, however, the final solution offered by the east. The east felt that the twelve month restriction was as generous as they could afford to be.

How can you say that DOH is "right fair and equitable" when clearly it is not. If you were hired in 1990 and no other pilot was hired until 2000 does that ten year span mean anything on your list? No. You are one number senior to him. DOH is only used to establish "relative" seniority on your own list. It has no other meaning. The fact that pilot A has ten more years LOS than pilot B is meaningless.

It means every pilot on the list older than him aged 10 years and is closer to punching out and when there number is up he/she steps into their shoes. Those pilots aged at US Airways not AWA, and the pilots on the Airways list are entitled to that advancement. Not somebody 15 years younger than him, hired 15 years after him. Movement and vacancies based on mandatory retirement is the only absolute not predicated on "career expectations", but "career expectation" and everything else ALPA is just a guideline anyway, along with the ALPA constitution.

 

[Piedmont1984]

That is, however, the final solution offered by the east. The east felt that the twelve month restriction was as generous as they could afford to be.

How can you say that DOH is "right fair and equitable" when clearly it is not. If you were hired in 1990 and no other pilot was hired until 2000 does that ten year span mean anything on your list? No. You are one number senior to him. DOH is only used to establish "relative" seniority on your own list. It has no other meaning. The fact that pilot A has ten more years LOS than pilot B is meaningless.

By the same token, if pilot A was hired in 1989, furloughed in 2002, spent 14 years flying the line - should pilot B who was hired in 2005 go ahead of pilot A on the combined list?

Sorry, not in my book.

 

[hp_fa]

I can't help but think that if East were to accept Nicolau and subsequently the pilots decided to attempt to decertify ALPA, then the pilots (note that I did not say East or West) would have a far less muddled picture to view and from which to base a decision. However, until that time, it is unlikely that East will get any significant support from West (in large part because ALPA is their mechanism to implement Nicolau) and have trouble within their own ranks regarding just what USAPA accomplishes as far as Nicolau and the expected legal actions to enforce that binding arbitration.

In my view I still see USAPA as being created primarily to reject Nicolau and force either DOH or Longevity on the West pilot group. I also view USAPA, as it currently would stand in the present situation, as a huge expense to its pilot group because of the expenses, legal and others, which it would incur in protracted litigation that I view as unavoidable. If the Nicolau decision was to be removed from the equation, then it clears the playing field for a true decision on whether to keep or replace ALPA without collateral concerns.

I know many pilots will disagree with my assessment, saying either that they supported the concept of a new in-house union long before Nicolau or as simply saying 'burn the sucker down'. Fair enough, but what are the long-term ramifications of that? Only you can decide.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You Alpoids should collectively appear on stage in LAS as a comedy act😉

Hey, look who's back from his time-out! Somebody poke him so he'll blow up again.

 

[P51Pilot]

AI 07-95 - NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE REPORT
Doug Mowery, Chairman
September 10, 2007 – 3rd Q


The week of 20Aug the Rice Committee met for three full days in PHX. The West stated very clearly on day one that they were not interested in participating in this process if it did not lead to a single agreement with implementation of the Nicolau award. On Day two we met separately with the Rice Committee (RC) from the West and it became readily apparent that the RC also has the same goal---a single agreement with eventual implementation of the award. Paul Rice stated that we needed to work toward a “transition to the implementationâ€￾ of the award. It appears also that their desire is to have this transition occur in a fairly short time frame (1-2 years). Although no specific time frame was mentioned directly by those schooled in carefully choosing their words, they repeatedly asked us questions of where would Dean Colello be in a couple years; where would Dan Scola be, etc. and did this begin to solve our issues? We stayed on a very long time frame (forever, until the last protected pilot retires, etc.). Each time the discussion was artfully steered back to thinking of a much shorter duration.

Wow ALPA National trying to play into the individual interest of East committee members to try to an appeal their own interests over the group they represent. How Ford and Harrison and management like has ALPA become? This tactic along with trying to bypass elected union representation and engage in direct negotiation with members as they attempted with the Praeter roadshow is right out of the anti-labor corporate play book, but I forgot ALPA isn't a corporation it is an association.

 

[USA320Pilot]

OpEd Thoughts for the Day

Today US Airways announced that it is going to add 490 pilots to the seniority list before the end of 2008, which is largely due to the East pilot group attrition and PHL International Expansion. Virtually none of this hiring was brought to the merger by the AWA pilots, except for the merger synergistic effect.

Thus, the question is, what should the US Airways pilots do to capture this attrition, which they and not the AWA pilots brought to the merger? Furthermore, if ALPA National's solution is a 1-2 year fence (likely the fence option provided by the AWA MEC) and economic benefits of a joint contract, then what could be the only other meaningful option to keep the attrition-based career expectation where it belongs?

Therefore, my question is have you sent in your card yet?

To further this discussion, please read the two articles below:

Ready to Fly? US Airways to Hire 350 New Pilots - Airline also recalls 140 pilots currently flying for regional carriers

See Story

ALPA National to East US Airways Pilots -- ``Buzz Off''; National Association Abandons East Pilots, Seniority

See Story

In my opinion, ALPA National has two objectives in the US Airways - AWA dispute.

1. Build the largest pilot union possible, which provides the most amount of dues.

2. Raise the pilot economic bar, which also provides a greater amount of dues.

According to John Prater at his recent CLT pilot meeting, US Airways are the lowest paid major pilots in the industry. This situation makes it very difficult for other pilot groups to negotiate pay raises when their contracts became amendable. Therefore, getting the US Airways pilots a better contract is very important in the big picture. And, the only way for us to get a better contract is for the Executive Council to help us find a solution to the Nicolau Award induced mess.

Thus, is ALPA National somewhat self serving?

Therefore, when you consider whether or not to submit a USAPA card consider the following points:

1. USAPA Constitution requires the merging of seniority lists by "date-of-hire" and no other methodology. Can this happen? I have heard two different legal opinions on this subject, both of which make sense and are opposite; however, the US Airways pilot goals are not in alignment with ALPA National and the only way out of the Nicolau Award problem may be kicking ALPA off of the property.

2. A NMB request count of 50% of eligible US Airways-AWA pilots, plus one, is required for an election to be held. However, during the follow-on election a simple majority of voting pilots will determine the new collective bargaining agent.

3. USAPA will represent only US Airways pilots and the conflicts of interest associated with a large national association, which I listed above, will be avoided.

3. The best-compensated pilots in the domestic passenger transport business, AirTran, Southwest and American, are all represented by company-specific unions.

4. The American pilots, represented by the Allied Pilots Association, were previously affiliated with ALPA and were assisted in their departure from the association by the same law firm assisting the US Airways pilots today.

5. According to John Prater, “The (Nicolau) award controversy is squandering leverage that could benefit US Airways pilots and the entire profession for many years to come.

In conclusion, John Prater said, “Management has made recent proposals that increase pay, improve vacation, allow for greater contributions to retirement plans, and substantially enhance work rules. It’s clear that they are not finished bargaining and more significant improvements are possible. Management has also stated its willingness to consider reasonable career protection provisions that are mutually agreed to by both pilot groups. Your families can finally escape the bankruptcy and ATSB hell, but only if you tell your LEC reps to find the one solution that both East and West pilots can support.â€

USA320Pilot's conclusion: I agree with John Prater’s comments in the paragraph immediately above, but if the AWA MEC is unwilling to negotiate a “realistic solution†to the Nicolau Award that both the East and West pilots can support, then I believe there is no other option except to support USAPA.

For the US Airways pilots USAPA “fence sitters†consider this. Doug Parker told the East and West pilots in his recent letter, “Please understand that I do not think a joint contract necessarily means immediate seniority integration. I have talked to enough US Airways pilots to know that such a proposal would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get ratified. I happen to believe that if we could get everyone together at the negotiating table, we could work something out that meets everyone’s needs.â€

Therefore, I strongly believe the best and maybe only way to obtain the best pay rates possible and accelerate the process for senior and junior pilots alike and reduce or eliminate the effects of the Nicolau Award and break the log jam to obtain improved pay and benefits, is to support USAPA. If not, there is absolutely no hope of getting a joint contract ratified with about 2,400 pilots signing USAPA cards.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[SkyRat]

(EastUS @ Sep 11 2007, 11:35 PM)
You Alpoids should collectively appear on stage in LAS as a comedy act😉

Hey, look who's back from his time-out! Somebody poke him so he'll blow up again.

And back to the cornfields?

LOL... ROLF!

 

[700UW]

Wrong, it is not a simple majority for a win during a union election.

It is still 50%+1 of all ELIGBLE voters in order to win.

Once again, DONT LET THE FACTS GET IN YOUR WAY!

 

[Junebug172]

EVERY EAST PILOT SHOULD READ THIS POST FOR THEIR OWN GOOD:

Junebug has been right all along.

Finally!! I've known it all along that I've been right along.

Woohoo!!!