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AWA320

Your MEC's GREED is the real threat.

The brash attitude displayed as to who saved who
Taking the 10% 401K and Profit Sharing with not even a Thank You
Getting a 3% pay raise and no offer to share
Wanting the 70 Million pay out
Wanting the Stock Options

Sorry but you need to look in the mirror to see the real enemy. The big Green guy that looks like Hulk

You asked for it and now USAPA is here.

As usual bottomfeeder you are incorrect and uninformed!!! Lets take this one by one shall we.

It's no secret that AAA was well on their way to liquidation. 33% of your pilot force was on furlough with no hope of ever being recalled. AAA was returning a/c in favor of RJ's hence the creation of Mid Atlantic!!

Your mec offered the profit sharing and lets look at the reason for that. They offered this because they just knew that we were going to hosed in the seniority case and why not, you got a gift in the E190 arb case so it stood to reason that you would again. The offer or better the bribe of profit sharing was designed to ease the blow of the seniority case and nothing more. AAA pilots have NEVER EVER done anything for anybody that didn't benefit them so you can save that nonsense for someone who cares to believe you. BTW thank you!!!!

Getting a 3% raise?? Are you serious?? That was written in to my current contract as a pay increase on Jan 1 07 so what's your problem?? I want you to have a raise TODAY hell YESTERDAY in fact. Lets get to the table and get the contract we both need! No you just want parity so you don't have to have to negotiate a contract and why not, it would be a 13% pay raise for the East and East ONLY!!!

The 70 million pay out again we don't want your payout but don't come to the west pilots begging for an after the fact negotiation and show up empty handed. Gimme gimme gimme is all I hear from the east with NO and I mean absolutly NO offers from you in return!!!

Prifit sharing?? well if you can get it then go for it! I would love to see it in our contract but I don't want to sacrafice anything for it.

Now remind me again who's greedy bottomfeeder!!!
 
It's no secret that AAA was well on their way to liquidation. 33% of your pilot force was on furlough with no hope of ever being recalled. AAA was returning a/c in favor of RJ's hence the creation of Mid Atlantic!!

Huh? What planet are you on?

On the way to liquidation? Pulease! Making an operational profit is an indication that "liquidation" was not even over the horizon.

33% of what on furlough, from 1991? Sure, and how many of those would have returned?

Returning a/c? Because the lease was up? or the lessor could get better money elsewhere?

In return for RJs, that US did not even own but leased?

Greed? Heck, right now, I want some of what you are smoking. Lovely fantasy.
 
Huh? What planet are you on?

On the way to liquidation? Pulease! Making an operational profit is an indication that "liquidation" was not even over the horizon.

33% of what on furlough, from 1991? Sure, and how many of those would have returned?

Returning a/c? Because the lease was up? or the lessor could get better money elsewhere?

In return for RJs, that US did not even own but leased?

Greed? Heck, right now, I want some of what you are smoking. Lovely fantasy.


Sharktooth,

Wake up man!!! You don't really think that AAA was on it's way to profitability outside of this merger do you?? C'mon man please tell me that you are better than that!!! No matter how you look at it AAA was going down and in rapid fashion. Take a look at you own management which had no plan for your BK exit!!! Leased, rented owned it's all the same ST, AAA was losing big airplanes and getting little one's no two ways about it.
 
Who's numbers are you refering to? I didn't post them, Junebug did. And they were/are wrong. But don't take my word for it, check them out again. Strange reply to my quote you used.

Yes. I was referring to our beloved Junebug. My appologies, I hit the wrong reply button and accidentally cast a shadow on you. Oops! Junebug can now say I was wrong. :lol: ..but that the East knows more about the numbers than Bug knows. :lol:
 
You don't really think that AAA was on it's way to profitability outside of this merger do you??

Define "profitability" first. Especially in a cash flow industry.


Take a look at you own management which had no plan for your BK exit!!! Leased, rented owned it's all the same ST, AAA was losing big airplanes and getting little one's no two ways about it.

Sorry, you are wrong. There were several plans to exit BK. Parker presented the "best", among others, at least for the controlling folks, as it were, in order to take their money and run. I certainly would never have accepted an offer from Parker, no matter how lucrative.

Perhaps you should know that the "big" plan under Wolf/Rakesh was to "control", whether by ownership or lease, 400 RJs. They did not do that until they could "afford" it, deferring such a "purchase" until they had first, bought airbusi and, later, find a dupe (Parker) to participate. The RJs were simply a continuation of that plan. To imply otherwise is to demonstrate pure ignorance.

Take a few days, review all the documentation over the last ten years, then speak. You would sound so much more intelligent that way.
 
As usual bottomfeeder you are incorrect and uninformed!!! Lets take this one by one shall we.

It's no secret that AAA was well on their way to liquidation. 33% of your pilot force was on furlough with no hope of ever being recalled. AAA was returning a/c in favor of RJ's hence the creation of Mid Atlantic!!

Your mec offered the profit sharing and lets look at the reason for that. They offered this because they just knew that we were going to hosed in the seniority case and why not, you got a gift in the E190 arb case so it stood to reason that you would again. The offer or better the bribe of profit sharing was designed to ease the blow of the seniority case and nothing more. AAA pilots have NEVER EVER done anything for anybody that didn't benefit them so you can save that nonsense for someone who cares to believe you. BTW thank you!!!!

Getting a 3% raise?? Are you serious?? That was written in to my current contract as a pay increase on Jan 1 07 so what's your problem?? I want you to have a raise TODAY hell YESTERDAY in fact. Lets get to the table and get the contract we both need! No you just want parity so you don't have to have to negotiate a contract and why not, it would be a 13% pay raise for the East and East ONLY!!!

The 70 million pay out again we don't want your payout but don't come to the west pilots begging for an after the fact negotiation and show up empty handed. Gimme gimme gimme is all I hear from the east with NO and I mean absolutly NO offers from you in return!!!

Prifit sharing?? well if you can get it then go for it! I would love to see it in our contract but I don't want to sacrafice anything for it.

Now remind me again who's greedy bottomfeeder!!!

AWA320


GREED right now is a one way West street

The East has not had a single addition from the West

You on the other hand has been given the East's
*Profit Sharing
*10% 401K
*Training pay

You want the East's
* Stock Options
* 70 Million payout

So you are going to get what you asked for
A divided pilot group

In comes USAPA and Thank You
Because it would not have happen if you were not so GREEDY

Thank You Thank You
 
I'm sorry AAA73 I just can't get with your program. You guys only seek to get out of your obligation of a binding arbitration and will stop at nothing to get your way. Funny thing is you have been treated like crap by management for years and now you wish to changes representation. If you had gotton DOH and made this request I could maybe respect it but as it is not I can not and will do everything in my power to see that you fail. Sorry it's come to that bro as my energy would better be served fighting management and not my fellow pilots however you made the rules not me...

So now you change your story back to the old mantra. Fine. You work for the same old ALPA good ole boys and I will work for something new, USAPA. Your first post to me was about block representation, then you change it to the above quote. So what is it that doesn't make perfect sense about block reps? Or that you don't understand?

I have been treated like crap by both management and ALPA. Especially my own ALPA people who take advantage of a very flawed system to use for their own gain. Now I hear a past MEC Chairman is bucking for a "National" job because he doesn't like the contract he negotiated. I also hear about another ALPA negotiator in the running for another "National" job. Thats great, just great. Screw the line pilot then get rewarded for it. Hey, these guys saved the dues income for National. Why not get rewarded?

The ALPA system is corrupt and people like you support it. I would have supported the Dishwashers of America if it meant ALPA would be removed from the property. You have an alternative? Give me one. But right now it's USAPA and they have my full support. I personally don't care one way or the other what happens to merge the 2 pilot groups. So long as ALPA is gone. Any more questions about USAPA? Will be glad to answer them if I can.
 
US Airways ALPA MEC BOS Council 32 F/O Rep. Update - September 9, 2007

BOS Pilots,

Attached at the 3rd Qtr. MEC Meeting Officer and Committee Chairman reports, as well as the schedule of meeting events and Resolutions that have already been published on the agenda.

The reports contain some very good information, and are will worth the read.

As you can see, the schedule is a light one, as we have already determined the direction we will take in regard to the JNC negotiations, the Nicolau award, and the Rice Committee:

AAA MEC Rules of Engagement, by unanimous Resolutions:

1. That there will be no negotiated integrated seniority list that uses the Nicolau award as a starting point (in other words, it can't be" fixed"),

2. We will move forward with indefinite separate operations, and a separate and equivalent contract with the West,

3. We demand Pay Parity Now, and we will not participate in JNC negotiations (for separate and equivalent contracts) until we get it.

Fraternally,

Garland
 
After U-Turn’s revelation that the Executive Council was going to vote on whether to allow the single certificate dispute to go forward and after weeks of hiding the truth, our MEC had little choice but to mention it last night’s MEC hotline. But it was in a brief and totally uninformative statement, buried deep in the Hotline. It totally masked the scope of what the EC’s alternatives are:

ALPA’s Executive Council is scheduled to meet the week of September 17. The MEC chairmen for AWA, Captain John McIlvenna, and US Airways, Captain Jack Stephan, have been asked to discuss a number of issues, including MCF funding and the Transition Agreement dispute filed by the company over the single FAA operating certificate. This dispute is scheduled for expedited arbitration on September 21. The company plans to operate under a single FAA operating certificate by the end of September.

“This dispute is [NOT necessarily] scheduled for expedited arbitration on September 21.†It will only get there IF the much politicized Executive Council allows it to!

In our last issue, U-Turn promised to tell the truth if our MEC didn’t. We will keep that promise.

Since that last issue, U-Turn has received what we believe to be an authentic copy of the actual correspondence sent by John Prater to our two MEC Chairmen. It’s not marked confidential, it’s not an email, it doesn’t involve negotiations, it certainly wasn’t secretly addressed to the company (well, we hope it wasn’t), it’s not stamped with “destroy before reading†and we didn’t get it from an MEC insider.

If the president of our association (or the lawyers who wrote it for him) believed this communication were confidential, we would expect that the letter would have been labeled as such. It wasn’t. If it had been labeled confidential, after Herb’s “experience†with our MEC’s bogus Article VIII charges, we would not be posting it. In fact, we would have sent our MEC the name of our source, if for no other reason than to see if the MEC would go after him/her with an Article VIII witch hunt.

We have received other correspondence that makes it clear that the company is aware of the upcoming EC vote and that the single certificate dispute may not be arbitrated at all. Our brothers on the East side of things are aware of what is on the EC Agenda. Although not widely publicized, the EC’s meeting agenda is not “hidden.†Everyone knows but us.

With that in mind, U-Turn sees no problem and has a clear conscience in letting you know the truth. What we print will not shift the cosmic paradigm, nor force the planets to realign. Nor will it contribute to global warming (increased green-house gasses being passed, aside), child abuse or overturn the Nicolau Award. It will, however, keep you informed.

Compare the letter below with our MEC’s “warm and fuzzy†above. You are NOT being told the truth by your MEC.

September 6, 2007

Re: Issue under Section X of Transition Agreement concerning single certificate

Dear John and Jack:

The US Airways MEC has requested that the Association pursue a dispute under Section X of the Transition Agreement concerning management’s intent to operate under a single FAA operating certificate. The Airline Parties under the Transition Agreement have submitted such a dispute, seeking expedited hearing the week of September 17 and expedited decision prior to surrender of the America West operating certificate the last week of September.

The America West MEC has advised that it does not agree that operation under a single certificate violates the Transition Agreement. The Executive Council will review this subject at its meeting in Washington commencing September 17. In particular, the Executive Council will consider whether there can be a dispute under Section X if the two MECs do not agree that there is a dispute. If the answer to the first question is in the affirmative, then the Executive Council will decide the Association’s position and whether this position constitutes a dispute between the Association and the Airline Parties. If the answer to this second question is in the affirmative, the Association, through the Legal Department, will proceed to expedited hearing of the dispute in accordance with the terms specified in the attached letter to the Airline Parties.

You or your designees should be prepared to make presentations to the Executive Council concerning both of the above two questions in accordance with a schedule to be provided to you by [name redacted].

Fraternally,

Captain John Prater, President

Before we go any further, U-Turn has to ask the obvious question: Where does the Executive Council get the self-righteous nerve to think that they have the right to mess with or interpret OUR Transition Agreement?

The ALPA Constitution is very specific on what the Executive Council can do. Per Article VI, Section 4.A, the Executive Council can only consider and act:

“…upon the following matters:

(1) Interpretation of the Constitution and By-Laws
(2) Adoption of policy
(3) Initiation of Constitution and By-Laws changes
(4) Adoption of Association-wide immediate or long term planning
(5) Adoption of Association-wide action
(6) National budget approval or modification
(7) OCD or MCF expendituresâ€

Is there anything in the ALPA Constitution cited above that even remotely suggests that the ALPA Executive Council has jurisdiction over whether one MEC, two MECs, can file for arbitration of a Transition Agreement dispute? Under what bizarre interpretation of the ALPA Constitution do they believe they have the right to sit in judgment over whether the single certificate issue is taken to arbitration?

And even though our East brothers may not agree, this is an Unconstitutional usurping of power by Herndon. This is NOT an Executive Council issue.

So, what’s wrong with the EC having a vote? Isn’t Captain Prater correct? Doesn’t ALPA National make the final decision on whether a dispute goes to arbitration?

Yes, ALPA National, serving in its capacity as our Collective Bargaining Agent, does have that ultimate decision-making authority on whether a dispute/grievance goes to arbitration. But decisions on whether to go to arbitration are “allegedly†non-political. And they should be made by the Herndon attorneys in the Representation and Legal Departments, NOT by political bodies, such as the Executive Council. Read the limits of their authority again. The EC has no business and no Constitutional authority being involved in the internal politics surrounding this issue.

Where is Herndon coming up with this stuff? And why are they involved?

The answers are easy: CONTROL! Ever since Herndon made its first balk at presenting the “List†last May, we have seen the entire process, which is clearly defined in Section 45 of the ALPA Administrative Manual, studied, stalled and mauled into one political battle and EC vote after another. Your union dollars at work!

Next U-Turn: Why our MEC’s “180?â€

(For those of you who are so eagerly awaiting our take on representation cards, we apologize for the delay. It is an extremely complicated issue, with both pros and cons and no really right answer for us out West. We will get to that, hopefully sooner rather than later. But this issue is time-sensitive. Its shelf-life ends in about 12 days. And you have the right to know…now.)

A personal note…Herb Holland will be retiring from U-Turn at the end of September, one month prior to his ALPA-supported forced retirement from US Airways. Herb would like to thank all those who have commented on and contributed to U-Turn. For him it has been a personal sacrifice in both time and money. His two Article VIII hearings and appeal alone cost over $10,000. But for Herb it was worth the cost. If nothing other than stopping 8:30 comes out of the 140 U-turns published over the past 14 months, then it was money well-spent.

The Mighty U-Turn
 
As usual bottomfeeder you are incorrect and uninformed!!! Lets take this one by one shall we.

Like not having enough cards?
Vocal East minority
You saved the East and then posted 6 quarters of losses
So far you are the incorrect and uninformed one


It's no secret that AAA was well on their way to liquidation. 33% of your pilot force was on furlough with no hope of ever being recalled. AAA was returning a/c in favor of RJ's hence the creation of Mid Atlantic!!

911 caused furloughs with almost all of the major airlines.
Which airline was the first to get an ATSB loan? Why did they need the loan?
Never happened but if it did you would not have the East assets since you were heading to BK


Your mec offered the profit sharing and lets look at the reason for that. They offered this because they just knew that we were going to hosed in the seniority case and why not, you got a gift in the E190 arb case so it stood to reason that you would again. The offer or better the bribe of profit sharing was designed to ease the blow of the seniority case and nothing more. AAA pilots have NEVER EVER done anything for anybody that didn't benefit them so you can save that nonsense for someone who cares to believe you. BTW thank you!!!!

Did you get the Profit Sharing and 10% 401K?
Did our MEC vote to give it to you?
What did the East guys get from you besides nothing?
Was Profit Sharing or 10% 401K in your CBA?


Getting a 3% raise?? Are you serious?? That was written in to my current contract as a pay increase on Jan 1 07 so what's your problem?? I want you to have a raise TODAY hell YESTERDAY in fact. Lets get to the table and get the contract we both need! No you just want parity so you don't have to have to negotiate a contract and why not, it would be a 13% pay raise for the East and East ONLY!!!

You shout CBA unless your MEC wants something. Then your CBA just disappears till you need it again.
Once again the East got zero, nada, zilch or nothing from you


The 70 million pay out again we don't want your payout but don't come to the west pilots begging for an after the fact negotiation and show up empty handed. Gimme gimme gimme is all I hear from the east with NO and I mean absolutly NO offers from you in return!!!

No offer in return? Are you serious? Name one thing your West gave the East.

Prifit sharing?? well if you can get it then go for it! I would love to see it in our contract but I don't want to sacrafice anything for it.

Profit Sharing was not in your CBA but of course it is ok to take it.
Show us the Stock Option clause in your CBA
Talking out of both sides of your big mouth


Now remind me again who's greedy bottomfeeder!!!
Your MEC is the king of GREED
 
AWA320,

Nobody can do anything about the past, only the future.

Let's go over current affairs:

According to Garland Jones, the AAA MEC Rules of Engagement, by unanimous Resolutions are:

1. That there will be no negotiated integrated seniority list that uses the Nicolau award as a starting point (in other words, it can't be" fixed"),

2. We will move forward with indefinite separate operations, and a separate and equivalent contract with the West,

3. We demand Pay Parity Now, and we will not participate in JNC negotiations (for separate and equivalent contracts) until we get it.

And, other key points are:

4. The Rice Committee is meeting with both JNC's this week and will present "realistic solutions" to the issues facing the East and West pilots and Doug Parker wants a compromise.

5. The US Airways MEC has a pending lawsuit pending against the AWA MEC.

6. The EC is scheduled to meet the week of September 17. On the agenda is MCF funding and the Transition Agreement dispute filed by the company over the single FAA operating certificate. This dispute is scheduled for expedited arbitration on September 21. And, EVP Russ Weber will submit a resolution for the EC to forward the Nicolau Award onto the Company.

7. If the Award is forwarded to the company (which I doubt), this would trigger even greater USAPA support as the fence sitters would mail in their cards to USAPA. This undoubtedly enables USAPA to kick ALPA off of the East and West property by the end of the year.

8. USAPA is very close to filing their NMB Form 1 and IRS paperwork, which could happen in a matter of days.

9. Junebug's Wilson Center poll "spin" is way off base according to one EC member, one US Airways MEC Officer, and two MEC members. Nobody, I mean nobody can force the East pilots to ratify a joint contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award; therefore, either there is some sort of compromise or the two pilot groups wi l reamin at odds and separate for a very long time.

History does not matter and the only thing(s) that matter are the 9 points above. Either they are effectively managed or USAPA will become the collective bargaining agent and the West pilots will see union "imposition".

Regards,

USA320Pilot
 
Junebug's Wilson Center poll "spin" is way off base

Not according to Garland. And since your referencing him, allow me to as well:

2. As a result of ALPA National's poll of US Airways pilots, Prater, the Executive Council and the Rice Committee now believe that the East pilots have a price at which they can be bribed to accept the Nicolau Award.

We shall soon see.

Garland
"You must take the war to the enemy. You must attack and go on attacking all the time."
— Major Willy Omer François Jean Coppens de Houthulst, Belgian Air Service, 37 victo
ries W.W.I..
 
According to Garland Jones, the AAA MEC Rules of Engagement, by unanimous Resolutions are:

1. That there will be no negotiated integrated seniority list that uses the Nicolau award as a starting point (in other words, it can't be" fixed"),

2. We will move forward with indefinite separate operations, and a separate and equivalent contract with the West,

3. We demand Pay Parity Now, and we will not participate in JNC negotiations (for separate and equivalent contracts) until we get it.

And, other key points are:

4. The Rice Committee is meeting with both JNC's this week and will present "realistic solutions" to the issues facing the East and West pilots and Doug Parker wants a compromise.

5. The US Airways MEC has a pending lawsuit pending against the AWA MEC.

6. The EC is scheduled to meet the week of September 17. On the agenda is MCF funding and the Transition Agreement dispute filed by the company over the single FAA operating certificate. This dispute is scheduled for expedited arbitration on September 21. And, EVP Russ Weber will submit a resolution for the EC to forward the Nicolau Award onto the Company.

7. If the Award is forwarded to the company (which I doubt), this would trigger even greater USAPA support as the fence sitters would mail in their cards to USAPA. This undoubtedly enables USAPA to kick ALPA off of the East and West property by the end of the year.

8. USAPA is very close to filing their NMB Form 1 and IRS paperwork, which could happen in a matter of days.

9. Junebug's Wilson Center poll "spin" is way off base according to one EC member, one US Airways MEC Officer, and two MEC members. Nobody, I mean nobody can force the East pilots to ratify a joint contract if it triggers the Nicolau Award; therefore, either there is some sort of compromise or the two pilot groups wi l reamin at odds and separate for a very long time.

History does not matter and the only thing(s) that matter are the 9 points above. Either they are effectively managed or USAPA will become the collective bargaining agent and the West pilots will see union "imposition".

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I'm confused here. You easties tell me to ignore Garland because he's more of "drama queen" than anything else. And USA320Pilot alludes to Garland has dishing out bad info after I reference it in one of my many posts.

But, selectively, USA320Pilot chooses to uses Garland to back up his arguments, so I shall as well.

Here goes:

Point 1 - The Nicolau Award is the only starting point for negotiations. End of story.

Point 2 - Ya, right.

Point 3 - Demand all you want, but you ain't gonna get it!!! Try reading this for once:

+II. Period of Separate Operations

A. The pilot workforces of America West and US Airways will remain separate and
covered by their respective collective bargaining agreements (the “Separate
Operationsâ€￾) until Operational Pilot Integration
as provided in Section VI. A.

B. During Separate Operations:
1. US Airways Group will operate both America West and US Airways in
accordance with the terms of this Letter of Agreement and the provisions
of each carrier's respective collective bargaining agreement



as signed:

By:______________________________
William D. Pollock, Chairman
US Airways MEC


and as witnessed:

By:______________________________
Kim Allen Snider, Vice Chairman
US Airways MEC


By:______________________________
Douglas L. Mowery, Chairman
US Airways Negotiating Committee

By:______________________________
Dan Scola
US Airways Negotiating Committee


Point 4 - Even Rice thinks knows this committee is worthless. So anything they put out is moot.

Point 5 - Which is doomed to failure. Even USAPA agrees.

Point 6 - On the agenda is the immediate submission of the Nicolau Award as well. Its going to be presented to Parker.

Point 7 - YAWN. The NMB has even deteremined officially if we are a SBU.

Point 8 - They been "very close" for a while.

Point 9 - No spin. My info is very accurate and was backed up by Garland.
 
You don't really think that AAA was on it's way to profitability outside of this merger do you??

It is very difficult to explain my thoughts to someone whose ideas of accounting seem to date prior to 1985. The concept of profitability nowadays is likely quite different that what you seem to think, especially in this extreme cash flow environment. When one is talking about airlines as vehicles to convey money to financial organizations, as we are with US, the smart money is not interested in whether the vehicle itself makes a profit.

No matter how you look at it AAA was going down and in rapid fashion.

Not even close. Even the DOJ had some comments about the "appearance of excessive spin" US was using to appear distressed. Besides, who would approve a merger in which the majority player was going down? Wouldn't the smart money wait to pick up distressed merchandise?

Take a look at you own management which had no plan for your BK exit!!!

US had two other investors (Texas Air Corp was one), in addition to those set up by Lakefield. A&W contributed nothing to the "merger", not even the name.

Leased, rented owned it's all the same ST, AAA was losing big airplanes and getting little one's no two ways about it.

Really, which "big airplanes"? Seems the only 767 US lost was the complete loss when one engine had un-contained engine failure, on the ground. Perhaps you know of others? Some narrow-body orders were deferred, some were actually moved up.

Sounds to me like you have been fed a hill of beans and now all you have is gas.
 
Sharkie,

Texas Air does not exsist, that was Frank Lorenzo's company.

Teaxs Pacific Group in the first bankruptcy was going to be the DIP Financier till Bronner and RSA stepped in and outbid them

A/C 647US a 767-200ER was lease returned during the bankrupcty and now is flying for an African Carrier. Numerous 757s were also lease returned as were some A320 family A/C which were sent to GYR returned to the lessor and were then leased back to US again.

A/C 654US was the one that burnt up in PHL.

No plane orders were moved up they were all delayed and some were cancelled.

And US is still returning planes to lessors as part of not leasing them again and part of the deal with GECAS from the last chapter 11 filing.

Don't let the facts get in your way.
 
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