AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[electricjet98]

The folowing is an excerpt from:

AI 07-95 - NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE REPORT

Doug Mowery, Chairman

September 10, 2007 – 3rd Q

Rice Committee and “equivalent, permanent, separate contractsâ€

We have had numerous meetings with the Rice Committee since the 17Jul07 joint MEC meeting called by Prater in Washington D.C. Until 14Aug these meetings involved only members of the Rice Committee and the East (Rice conducted separate meetings with the West).

Attending from the Rice Committee have been Paul Rice and Bruce York as the “constantsâ€. Auxiliary members include, Matt Marsh from Champion, Ray Miller from NorthWest, Dave Webb from FedEx and Larry Schulte (retired UAL and former ALPA Officer).

Attending from the East has been the entire NC (including Dean Colello), Jack Stephan, and one member from the merger committee (Kevin Barry). It was obvious at the early meetings that the Rice Committee had a desired preference for a single agreement due to its greater economic value. The MEC resolution for permanent separate contracts with equivalent economics (25Jul07) was panned by the committee and termed “dumb†by Bruce York at a 13Aug meeting.
On 14Aug the Rice committee brought the West and East side together for the first time, but that was to primarily explore a united response to a possible request for mediation the next day from management in JNC negotiations and to lay the groundwork for three days of “joint†meetings in PHX the following week. The request for mediation did not materialize the next day as many, including myself, expected.

The week of 20Aug the Rice Committee met for three full days in PHX. The West stated very clearly on day one that they were not interested in participating in this process if it did not lead to a single agreement with implementation of the Nicolau award. On Day two we met separately with the Rice Committee (RC) from the West and it became readily apparent that the RC also has the same goal---a single agreement with eventual implementation of the award. Paul Rice stated that we needed to work toward a “transition to the implementation†of the award. It appears also that their desire is to have this transition occur in a fairly short time frame (1-2 years. Although no specific time frame was mentioned directly by those schooled in carefully choosing their words, they repeatedly asked us questions of where would Dean Colello be in a couple years; where would Dan Scola be, etc. and did this begin to solve our issues?) We stayed on a very long time frame (forever, until the last protected pilot retires, etc.). Each time the discussion was artfully steered back to thinking of a much shorter duration.

Even more alarming was the impression that the RC did not back our fight for pay parity!

They continually discussed the large economics our pilots would receive and wouldn’t that sway them to vote in the affirmative. Mike Abram mentioned our Group 2 C/O getting raises from $125 to $165 in the single agreement. Notice he did not start from a pay parity rate of $141 to $165. Mike also mentioned getting back to JNC negotiations--- “you mean after we get pay parity, right?†I asked. Mike was silent.

I finally laid the question directly on the table and asked the RC if they backed our fight for pay parity. Paul Rice, First Vice President of ALPA, stated that pay parity was not at issue here and refused to answer the question. In short, it appears the RC agrees with the strategy of the West articulated in JMac’s Chair letter at the end of July to hold economic gains for our pilots hostage to an acquiescence on the Nicolau award. The greater those economic gains, the greater their chance of achieving their (West and RC) goals.

On the final day of discussions in PHX the RC presented us (just East in attendance) with a bullet point document that was introduced by Paul Rice as geared toward a “single†agreement with implementation of the Nicolau award after a defined period. Various protections were itemized in the document. The documents were numbered and had to be turned in at the end of the discussion. I have provided an Aspen update for Jack to forward privately and we will discuss this in much more detail at the 3Q meeting.


Doug Mowery

AAA Negotiating Chairman

Junebug,

People have been telling you and the AWA MEC over-and-over that there needs to be a compromise to the Nicolau Award and the AWA MEC has not changed their postion. In my opinion, the AWA MEC has under estimated the resolve of the East pilots to never let the Nicolau Award proceed.

Dependent on the result of tomorrow's meeting, the strategic decisions made, and the advice of Lee Seham there could be a NMB Form 1 filing as soon as this week. If that happens the EC, US Airways MEC, and AWA MEC will lose control of the process and union "imposition" could occur.

There is still time to reach a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award problem, but unless the AWA MEC is willing to negotiate a compromise then I believe USAPA will start the formal process to kick ALPA off of both the East and West property very soon. If USAPA is successful in thier effort to replace ALPA nobody truly knows how the courts will rule on the Nicolau Award because it is a private contract versus a corporate contract. Therefore, is Lee Seham's or Pete Janhunen's opinion accurate and which one will be viewed as accurate by the Court's?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Starting to panic USA320Pilot?

 

[aquagreen73s]

The folowing is an excerpt from:

AI 07-95 - NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE REPORT

Doug Mowery, Chairman

September 10, 2007 – 3rd Q

Rice Committee and “equivalent, permanent, separate contractsâ€￾

Paul Rice stated that we needed to work toward a “transition to the implementationâ€￾ of the award. It appears also that their desire is to have this transition occur in a fairly short time frame (1-2 years.[/b] AAA Negotiating Chairman
Starting to panic USA320Pilot?

???? 1-2 years is short? I will always be amazed by how the East's sense of entitlement convolutes normal concepts, in this case time. 1-2 years is really a long time considering that the process after the arbitration is clear and defined - this should really be completed by December. Yet Mowrey actually thinks 2009 is still relatively short?

 

[electricjet98]

???? 1-2 years is short? I will always be amazed by how the East's sense of entitlement convolutes normal concepts, in this case time. 1-2 years is really a long time considering that the process after the arbitration is clear and defined - this should really be completed by December. Yet Mowrey actually thinks 2009 is still relatively short?

My question is what are the west guys getting in return for the 1-2 year delay? Enhancements to our 401k to match the east's pension? If we're not getting something in return, we're simply giving in to extortion! But it is fun watching how some would distort the facts and inform us (for our own good) that we must make even further compromises! :down:

 

[aquagreen73s]

My question is what are the west guys getting in return for the 1-2 year delay? Enhancements to our 401k to match the east's pension? If we're not getting something in return, we're simply giving in to extortion! But it is fun watching how some would distort the facts and inform us (for our own good) that we must make even further compromises! :down:

I guess we could say that the light is at the end of the tunnel, but what really grates at me (and I'm sure this wasn't lost on the RC as well) was the fact that the 1-2 year timeframe is clearly a gift to the East. Yet their response is a crass indignation. There is a never ending supply of hubris over there.

On a side note, an interesting thing happened on my last trip. A UAL 777 Captain approached the captain and me at Starbucks and offered to buy our coffees. I'm looking at him with a WTF??? look, but then again, we're talking about free coffee. The UAL captain explained that he appreciates what the America West pilots have done in silencing what was a major problem for UAL and was potentially a major problem for ALPA. According to him, he and many others at UAL are very impressed with the resolve and unity among America West pilots and that there is only one possible outcome and that is full implementation of what he (the UAL pilot) deemed to be a very fair arbitration. I took the few minutes we had to explain USAPA which he immediately shrugged off as an effort doomed to fail (to which I agree and the point isn't even worth discussing further). The UAL captain continued that if anything, ALPA would shove the award and a CBA down the throats of all USAirways pilots and let the USAPA choke on that. Overall it was a nice conversation and reaffirms my other interactions with UAL pilots post-Nic. We talked about a UAL-LCC merger and all agreed that a seniority integration wouldn't be very difficult if the West and UAL do the negotiations. Both sides are pretty realistic but should UAL and LCC get together, a straightforward process will once again become a nightmare thanks to a cast of characters already notorious for their unreasonability and perhaps insanity. The captain and I had a good chuckle (and enjoyed the free coffee!).


I would far prefer a unified, joint contract that sees gains far beyond what Parker is offering, but that would require common sense throughout the East to understand that Nic is inevitable and that USAPA is a dead end. No matter what happens, the West will eventually (1-2 years) see this process through.

 

[767jetz]

I guess we could say that the light is at the end of the tunnel, but what really grates at me (and I'm sure this wasn't lost on the RC as well) was the fact that the 1-2 year timeframe is clearly a gift to the East. Yet their response is a crass indignation. There is a never ending supply of hubris over there.

On a side note, an interesting thing happened on my last trip. A UAL 777 Captain approached the captain and me at Starbucks and offered to buy our coffees. I'm looking at him with a WTF??? look, but then again, we're talking about free coffee. The UAL captain explained that he appreciates what the America West pilots have done in silencing what was a major problem for UAL and was potentially a major problem for ALPA. According to him, he and many others at UAL are very impressed with the resolve and unity among America West pilots and that there is only one possible outcome and that is full implementation of what he (the UAL pilot) deemed to be a very fair arbitration. I took the few minutes we had to explain USAPA which he immediately shrugged off as an effort doomed to fail (to which I agree and the point isn't even worth discussing further). The UAL captain continued that if anything, ALPA would shove the award and a CBA down the throats of all USAirways pilots and let the USAPA choke on that. Overall it was a nice conversation and reaffirms my other interactions with UAL pilots post-Nic. We talked about a UAL-LCC merger and all agreed that a seniority integration wouldn't be very difficult if the West and UAL do the negotiations. Both sides are pretty realistic but should UAL and LCC get together, a straightforward process will once again become a nightmare thanks to a cast of characters already notorious for their unreasonability and perhaps insanity. The captain and I had a good chuckle (and enjoyed the free coffee!).
I would far prefer a unified, joint contract that sees gains far beyond what Parker is offering, but that would require common sense throughout the East to understand that Nic is inevitable and that USAPA is a dead end. No matter what happens, the West will eventually (1-2 years) see this process through.

I agree with these comments and commend the West for staying the course and taking the High road. No good can ever come from giving in to extortion. IMO you will see this through to it's inevitable conclusion and come out the other end having restored some of the dignity and integrity that has been lost by those who have steered this process into the ditch.

767jetz

 

[USA320Pilot]

I am not a legal expert on different agreements or contract law. Stephen Bradford and I had a 10-hour conversation and I used the terms he provided, which were obtained from Lee Seham.

Meawnhile, about 75% of the US Airways pilots have signed USAPA cards and the East pilot resolve is enormous. The East pilots are outraged over the Nicolau Award and if anything is done to try and force its implementation I believe it will invite Civil War that could cause the airline to fail.

Doug Mowrey's NC update has increased the East pilot outrage, will likely result in more cards being submitted to USAPA, and accelerate the process to kick ALPA off of the property.

After that we will see what happens to the seniority integration and new contract, which could take a few year's to resolve. The fight has just begun.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[aquagreen73s]

The folowing is an excerpt from:

AI 07-95 - NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE REPORT

Doug Mowery, Chairman

September 10, 2007 – 3rd Q

Rice Committee and “equivalent, permanent, separate contractsâ€￾

On 14Aug the Rice committee brought the West and East side together for the first time, but that was to primarily explore a united response to a possible request for mediation the next day from management in JNC negotiations and to lay the groundwork for three days of “jointâ€￾ meetings in PHX the following week. The request for mediation did not materialize the next day as many, including myself, expected.

AAA Negotiating Chairman

It was probably reasonable for all to expect a company request for mediation, and one can only speculate that the reason there wasn't a request was somehow due to information getting to management that the RC will be taking care of this problem in short order. Doug and Jerry must have gotten a clear message that mediation won't be necessary to get the East back to the table.

This Mowrey letter has got to be devastating to many on the East. It shatters a complex house of cards built on false hopes and misinformation.

 

[SkyRat]

I guess we could say that the light is at the end of the tunnel, but what really grates at me (and I'm sure this wasn't lost on the RC as well) was the fact that the 1-2 year timeframe is clearly a gift to the East. Yet their response is a crass indignation. There is a never ending supply of hubris over there.

On a side note, an interesting thing happened on my last trip. A UAL 777 Captain approached the captain and me at Starbucks and offered to buy our coffees. I'm looking at him with a WTF??? look, but then again, we're talking about free coffee. The UAL captain explained that he appreciates what the America West pilots have done in silencing what was a major problem for UAL and was potentially a major problem for ALPA. According to him, he and many others at UAL are very impressed with the resolve and unity among America West pilots and that there is only one possible outcome and that is full implementation of what he (the UAL pilot) deemed to be a very fair arbitration. I took the few minutes we had to explain USAPA which he immediately shrugged off as an effort doomed to fail (to which I agree and the point isn't even worth discussing further). The UAL captain continued that if anything, ALPA would shove the award and a CBA down the throats of all USAirways pilots and let the USAPA choke on that. Overall it was a nice conversation and reaffirms my other interactions with UAL pilots post-Nic. We talked about a UAL-LCC merger and all agreed that a seniority integration wouldn't be very difficult if the West and UAL do the negotiations. Both sides are pretty realistic but should UAL and LCC get together, a straightforward process will once again become a nightmare thanks to a cast of characters already notorious for their unreasonability and perhaps insanity. The captain and I had a good chuckle (and enjoyed the free coffee!).

Have had the same experience and/or coments with other pilots that I have come across in the past several months while them or me shared the JS.

I would far prefer a unified, joint contract that sees gains far beyond what Parker is offering, but that would require common sense throughout the East to understand that Nic is inevitable and that USAPA is a dead end. No matter what happens, the West will eventually (1-2 years) see this process through.

I agree and I guess that time will tell!

Regards, :bleh:
GL

 

[aquagreen73s]

Meawnhile, about 75% of the US Airways pilots have signed USAPA cards and the East pilot resolve is enormous. The East pilots are outraged over the Nicolau Award and if anything is done to try and force its implementation I believe it will invite Civil War that could cause the airline to fail.

Back to the terrorist/Hamas threats again? Are you feeling cornered this fine Tuesday morning?

Doug Mowrey's NC update has increased the East pilot outrage, will likely result in more cards being submitted to USAPA, and accelerate the process to kick ALPA off of the property.

After that we will see what happens to the seniority integration and new contract, which could take a few year's to resolve. The fight has just begun.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Doug knows what is about to come down the pike and he doesn't want to be left holding the East MEC Bag. Hence, the honesty in his update. Good for him but then again it was probably an easy choice between his reputation (which I hear is very good) and taking one in the gut for a half-insane MEC and a completely insane Council 41.

You better play your USAPA card and do it quickly. It still won't get you anywhere, but it's about the only useless card you have left.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

🙄 (laughing and shaking my head)

My god you Westies and you United weiners are in for the shock of your lives.

Guys, don't waste your time bantering against the Westies on this forum. They'll get the message loud and clear very soon.

Later,
Eye

 

[sharktooth]

Texas Air does not exsist, that was Frank Lorenzo's company.

Teaxs Pacific Group in the first bankruptcy was going to be the DIP Financier till Bronner and RSA stepped in and outbid them

Um, sorry, little boy, but, they do exist as well as Texas Air group as well as Texas Pacific Group. Do a little look-see, acquaint yourself with corporate law and machinations, then, when you think you know something, report back.

and, no, Texas Air was not Frank's company. Lorenzo was an employee of Texas Air. Even Warren Buffet would throw-up in your particular face. He told me that.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I agree with these comments and commend the West for staying the course and taking the High road. No good can ever come from giving in to extortion. IMO you will see this through to it's inevitable conclusion and come out the other end having restored some of the dignity and integrity that has been lost by those who have steered this process into the ditch.

767jetz

The process was steered into the ditch when the principle of seniority=DOH was abandoned.

 

[prechilill]

🙄 (laughing and shaking my head)

My god you Westies and you United weiners are in for the shock of your lives.

Guys, don't waste your time bantering against the Westies on this forum. They'll get the message loud and clear very soon.

Later,
Eye

Feeling a little scared, I see. Oh how much I enjoy watching you guys deny the elephant sitting on your collective heads... and you still manage to be so optimistic!

 

[700UW]

Texas Air Corporation was the holding company for Eastern and Continental.

They did not put a bid in to be the DIP financier for US Airways.

Texas Pacific Group did.

And I like how you totaly ignored the rest of the post that refuted everything you posted.

Hungry from some Crow?

Texas Air was an airline holding company in the USA created to hold and invest in airlines, starting with Texas International Airlines as its core. Texas International Airlines, was formerly known as Trans-Texas Airways. After passage of the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978, Texas International Airlines expanded significantly, reduced its costs by discontinuing unprofitable routes and replaced its outdated Convair turboprops with newer DC-9 aircraft.

In 1982 it took over then debt-laden Continental Airlines, retaining Continental's better-known and less regional name. Continental Airlines, in moribund financial condition, succeeded in negotiating concession packages with all of its unions except for the International Association of Machinists (IAM). Because of the refusal of the IAM to renegotiate its contract, the company ultimately filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which allowed Frank Lorenzo (President and chief executive officer), to reject the collective bargaining agreements with its various unions.

In 1985, the company lost a bid to take over Trans World Airlines to corporate-raider Carl Icahn. In 1986 the company acquired Eastern Air Lines and People Express, with its Frontier Airlines included. By 1987 Texas Air Corporation had control of 20 percent of the U.S. airline market, even though the holding company only had 20 official employees.

By the early 1990s the company had been split up, with parts sold to Scandinavian Airlines System, Ross Perot's EDS (Electronic Data Systems), and an Air Canada-led investment group

Divestiture from Continental
In 1990, Frank Lorenzo successfully sold his controlling interest in Continental Airlines to Scandinavian Airlines System, and stepped down as CEO.

Texas Air Corporation does not exsist anymore.

Care to reply?

 

[prechilill]

The process was steered into the ditch when the principle of seniority=DOH was abandoned.

That "principle" was abandoned about a decade ago by a democratic vote. The East pilots should get full credit, though, for steering this merger into a ditch. You guys did a terrific job of torpedoing any sort of pilot unit on this property.