AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[Piedmont1984]

That "principle" was abandoned about a decade ago by a democratic vote. The East pilots should get full credit, though, for steering this merger into a ditch. You guys did a terrific job of torpedoing any sort of pilot unit on this property.

Democratic vote my butt, just like I got to vote on giving up my pension.

And we have plenty of unity thank you. Don't forget, this is not one property yet.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Democratic vote my butt, just like I got to vote on giving up my pension.

Now you're voicing the criticism of a republic versus a true democracy. But it's immaterial whether you actually got to vote on the DOH resolution at ALPA national because it's clear that the pilot profession prefers not to have it your way - even with a rank and file vote across ALPA the merger policy would be exactly as it is today. Furthermore, I can't seem to find any proposed resolutions from the East seeking to change the ALPA merger policy. When was the last time the East representative to ALPA national stood up and motioned for a change to the ALPA merger policy that reflected straight DOH? What I do find is that the DOH mantra was invoked by the East during the UAL near miss and then again with AWA. And not coincidentally, DOH heavily benefitted the East in both cases while at the same time severely burdened UAL and AWA. Hmmm....

 

[Piedmont1984]

Now you're voicing the criticism of a republic versus a true democracy. But it's immaterial whether you actually got to vote on the DOH resolution at ALPA national because it's clear that the pilot profession prefers not to have it your way - even with a rank and file vote across ALPA the merger policy would be exactly as it is today. Furthermore, I can't seem to find any proposed resolutions from the East seeking to change the ALPA merger policy. When was the last time the East representative to ALPA national stood up and motioned for a change to the ALPA merger policy that reflected straight DOH? What I do find is that the DOH mantra was invoked by the East during the UAL near miss and then again with AWA. And not coincidentally, DOH heavily benefitted the East in both cases while at the same time severely burdened UAL and AWA. Hmmm....

Can't argue with your criticism of our ALPA representation. Sent in your card?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Can't argue with your criticism of our ALPA representation. Sent in your card?

It's not our fight. Our only interest is enforcing the contract between the two pilot groups and it matters not to us whether we're dealing with ALPA or USAPA.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Doug Mowrey's comments on Pay Parity

The NC met the week after the 2Q07 Regular MEC meeting to develop the pay parity proposal that you tasked us with at that meeting. That proposal was finished and emailed to management the last week of June.

Since then you have all followed the saga of the West running to management to “ensure†that we would not be granted pay parity, and management’s reluctance to address the issue without West approval. Management’s original plan called for exploring “Extended Separate Operations†to achieve pay parity, but they subsequently moved away from that idea and back toward a “single†agreement. In either case, they indicated West approval was required.

The West continued to push us into “single†agreement JNC talks, edging us closer to the Nicolau award.

I spent weeks telling the West, Management and Officers and advisors of this association that JNC talks were futile at this point and that pay parity needed to be addressed. My final comments to Lyle Hogg and Beth Holdren in early August on this issue were that “the East pilots would not tolerate working on a B-scale much longerâ€.

I imagine you weren’t “feeling the love†from the West, Management, or ALPA any more than I was on this very important topic for our pilots. I commend you for the unanimous resolution of 15Aug07 pulling the JNC out of negotiations until pay parity is granted.

Guys, no one was listening!

You needed to get their attention. In Parker’s 16Aug07 letter to all pilots he never mentions that he feels we have “breached†the Transition Agreement and instead talks about working on a solution. Good. You have their attention now and they are already indicating a willingness to work things out. This will get worked out. Thank you for taking the dramatic action necessary to represent your pilots.

Doug Mowrey's final paragraph on the Rice Committee Report

On the final day of discussions in PHX the RC presented us (just East in attendance) with a bullet point document that was introduced by Paul Rice as geared toward a “single†agreement with implementation of the Nicolau award after a defined period. Various protections were itemized in the document. The documents were numbered and had to be turned in at the end of the discussion. I have provided an Aspen update for Jack to forward privately and we will discuss this in much more detail at the 3Q meeting.

USA320Pilot comments: It is my understanding the Rice Committee document speaks to fences, furlough protections, and future merger protections. According to Doug Mowrey, "It was obvious at the early meetings that the Rice Committee had a desired preference for a single agreement due to its greater economic value." Why? This increases ALPA's revenue, places upward pressure on other airline negotiations, and removes the "white elephant" sitting in the room.

However, the information contained in Mowrey's report has increased the resolve of East pilots to remove ALPA from the East and West property. What's interesting is that the MEC rarely if ever releases a detailed NC report. Thus, why did the MEC release Mowrey's comments simultaneously during the 3rd Quarter MEC meeting and the same day as the USAPA Officer meeting?

With USAPA having cards for about 50% of the combined pilot group and requiring 50% + 1 votes of those who vote, could there be an ulterior motive here and is the timing significant? Me thinks so...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[aquagreen73s]

Doug Mowrey's comments on Pay Parity

The NC met the week after the 2Q07 Regular MEC meeting to develop the pay parity proposal that you tasked us with at that meeting. That proposal was finished and emailed to management the last week of June.

Since then you have all followed the saga of the West running to management to “ensure†that we would not be granted pay parity, and management’s reluctance to address the issue without West approval. Management’s original plan called for exploring “Extended Separate Operations†to achieve pay parity, but they subsequently moved away from that idea and back toward a “single†agreement. In either case, they indicated West approval was required.

Oh, it's all the West's fault? Hmmm. Maybe the West just wants to hold the other party to its agreement - an agreement signed by none other than yourself Doug!

The West continued to push us into “single†agreement JNC talks, edging us closer to the Nicolau award.

Because that is what we had all agreed to do and that is what you are still supposed to do. What on Earth is so hard for him to comprehend?

I spent weeks telling the West, Management and Officers and advisors of this association that JNC talks were futile at this point and that pay parity needed to be addressed. My final comments to Lyle Hogg and Beth Holdren in early August on this issue were that “the East pilots would not tolerate working on a B-scale much longerâ€.

Then you need to get a CBA to the troops sooner rather than later because that is the only way the company, the West, and from what it looks like based upon your own update - ALPA - will proceed. That is, a joint contract. I'm sure the company's offer is still available.

Doug Mowrey's comments on Pay Parity
Guys, no one was listening!

Are you surprised? Why should they listen?

On the final day of discussions in PHX the RC presented us (just East in attendance) with a bullet point document that was introduced by Paul Rice as geared toward a “single†agreement with implementation of the Nicolau award after a defined period. Various protections were itemized in the document. The documents were numbered and had to be turned in at the end of the discussion. I have provided an Aspen update for Jack to forward privately and we will discuss this in much more detail at the 3Q meeting.

Various protections could be a problem for many in the West but we'll address that matter if necessary and when the time comes. In the meantime, the process agreed to by the East is still binding upon the East. What's more, that obligation is not extinguished by an NMB form 1 either. You can dance in circles all you want but you will wind up in the exact same position as before. For your own good, you better start accepting the reality of Nicolau being a part of your remaining years of service. It looks like you'll have a reprieve of another year or so, but the cost for that is another year on the B and C scale.

 

[Junebug172]

USA320Pilot comments: It is my understanding the Rice Committee document speaks to fences, furlough protections, and future merger protections. According to Doug Mowrey, "It was obvious at the early meetings that the Rice Committee had a desired preference for a single agreement due to its greater economic value." Why? This increases ALPA's revenue, places upward pressure on other airline negotiations, and removes the "white elephant" sitting in the room.

Hey yo USA320Pilot!!!

What happened to your almighty Rice Committee. Looks like they showed they West, didn't they.

Now that that's been put to bed, the next thing to happen is the EC will force Prater to present the list to Parker.

After that, National will sit at the JN table for the east (since they have a resolution prohibiting them from participating) and will work towards a TA.

The TA will then be presented to the east and they will accept it whole-heartedly.

Right on schedule!!!

 

[Junebug172]

🙄 (laughing and shaking my head)

My god you Westies and you United weiners are in for the shock of your lives.

Whatever there tough guy.

As far as I've seen, your all talk.

Blah, blah, and more blah.

 

[nostradamus]

Lets all relax and look forward to the holidays. You know one of my favorite songs is I'll be home for Christmas.

 

[sharktooth]

Texas Air Corporation was the holding company for Eastern and Continental.

They did not put a bid in to be the DIP financier for US Airways.

Texas Pacific Group did.

And I like how you totaly ignored the rest of the post that refuted everything you posted.

Hungry from some Crow?
Texas Air Corporation does not exsist anymore.

Care to reply?

actually, they did, and yes, they do exist. to this day. (I am an investor in their group) You identified the wrong group, but, from my point of view, I don't care. As long as my group gets their 10x investment you can take a cold shower for all I care.

Have-a-good-day.

 

[Junebug172]

People have been telling you and the AWA MEC over-and-over that there needs to be a compromise to the Nicolau Award

See, that's where you're brain-dead. The AWA MEC doesn't "need" to compromise on anything. The Nicolau Award came about as a result of a med/arb process agreed to by both sides.

Just out of curiousity, what would the West get out of "compromising?" What do you have to offer?


In my opinion, the AWA MEC has under estimated the resolve of the East pilots to never let the Nicolau Award proceed.


Yawn. This sentence of yours is being overused. It means jack.


Dependent on the result of tomorrow's meeting, the strategic decisions made, and the advice of Lee Seham there could be a NMB Form 1 filing as soon as this week. If that happens the EC, US Airways MEC, and AWA MEC will lose control of the process and union "imposition" could occur.

The NMB hasn't even decided if we're a single unit pertaining to representiation. And by the time the cards are counted and validated, the TA would have already been voted in making USAPA a moot point.


There is still time to reach a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award problem, but unless the AWA MEC is willing to negotiate a compromise...

Negotiations are over and you have nothing to negotiate with. Not interested anymore.


...then I believe USAPA will start the formal process to kick ALPA off of both the East and West property very soon.

"Very soon" has been a long time coming.


If USAPA is successful in thier effort to replace ALPA nobody truly knows how the courts will rule on the Nicolau Award because it is a private contract versus a corporate contract. Therefore, is Lee Seham's or Pete Janhunen's opinion accurate and which one will be viewed as accurate by the Court's?

Labor law already has the answer. The NA will stand without a doubt.

 

[prechilill]

Democratic vote my butt, just like I got to vote on giving up my pension.

And we have plenty of unity thank you. Don't forget, this is not one property yet.

Here is another for you to chew on, Piedmont 84:

"MERGER POLICY

Fact
ALPA Merger Policy was written and revised over many years by ALPA Boards of Directors and Executive Boards. These governing bodies consist entirely of local council representatives or MEC chairmen from pilot groups throughout our union (including an AAA representative who served on the committee that developed the 1991 policy modification following the mergers of Ozark–TWA, Republic–Northwest, Delta–Western, Piedmont–USAir, and others in the post-deregulation era). They are pilots just like you, and every one of them was elected by their brother and sister pilots.

Fact
ALPA Merger Policy strictly limits the role of ALPA National in seniority integration. That policy—as adopted by pilot representatives—states:

The role of ALPA in seniority integration is solely to provide the process by which the affected pilot groups on ALPA airlines arrive at the merged seniority list for presentation to management, through their respective merger representatives, using arbitration if necessary.

During your arbitration hearings, there was only one protest filed. The AAA MEC protested a submission by the AWA Merger Committee—a contract-costing document produced for the use of the Joint Negotiating Committee—and ALPA ruled to exclude the document.

Fact
Under ALPA Merger Policy, your MEC-elected merger representatives are completely responsible for the merged seniority list. Here is what ALPA Merger Policy says:

Responsibility for the merged seniority list falls upon the respective merger representatives with ALPA National in a neutral position on the merits. "



Do we have any questions from the east crowd??? Didn't think so...

 

[sharktooth]

Texas Air Corporation was the holding company for Eastern and Continental.

The Easter bunny must be a regular at your house.

Texas Air Corporation does not exsist anymore.

How do you know?

 

[nostradamus]

Here is another for you to chew on, Piedmont 84:

"MERGER POLICY


Fact
Under ALPA Merger Policy, your MEC-elected merger representatives are completely responsible for the merged seniority list. Here is what ALPA Merger Policy says:

Responsibility for the merged seniority list falls upon the respective merger representatives with ALPA National in a neutral position on the merits. "
Do we have any questions from the east crowd??? Didn't think so...

ALPA is not responsible for ALPA, is that what you are saying? Our former union mec and national are crooks. They are history. There are thousands of pilots and returning furloughed who do not share your enthusiasm for the company. How long of a future do you think you would of had if they would follow through with the list?

The only alternative the company has is buy outs, big time or attempt to fire us all. You know they will try the cheaper route first. This will be interesting. I would not attempt to fly on Usairways during the holidays, this is not a threat but an understanding of human nature.

The red headed step child approach has been proven disastrous for thousands of years.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just for kicks I perused the decertifyalpa.org website and after getting through the popup which begged for money, I found this latest release. I actually find the history informative, but unfortunately USAPA is a little short on candor. For example:


ALPA National to East US Airways Pilots -- ``Buzz Off'';
National Association Abandons East Pilots, Seniority

ESSINGTON, Pa.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--On the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, USAPA was made aware that the East US Airways pilots have suffered yet another assault on their careers. The latest blow was delivered by Paul Rice, ALPA executive VP and attorney Bruce York, ALPA’s director of representation. In meetings with east US Airways pilot negotiators, they let it be known that previous promises of protections for the original US Airways pilots were off the table.

Interesting, but hardly surprising.

The written report stated that the national association insists on, “a transition to implementation...†The report went on to state that, “It appears also that their desire is to have this transition occur in a fairly short time frame (1-2 years…).†It goes without saying that the east US Airways pilots will not participate in the “implementation†of this deeply flawed “award†in any way shape or form. Well, that's going to be a problem for the East for several reasons. One, ALPA can just substitute for the AWOL East. Secondly, implied in every contract is a covenant of good faith and fair dealing. The East is bound to its own obligations and their good faith participation is not discretionary. The law recognizes legal remedies and equitable remedies against those found to be in breach of express or implied covenants. One of the most powerful equitable remedies a court possesses is contempt. Remember Rich LaVoy and his APA gang? Exactly. It can happen and if the East keeps up with their pledge to thumb their nose at Lady Justice, then there will be consequences. If ALPA doesn't do something, then I and some select AWA pilots will do something. Another F/O and I went lawyer shopping over the last two weeks and all three firms verified exactly what I just said - I as an individual pilot can bring an actionable claim against individual East members for their willful breach. If you want to take that as a threat, well, I guess it is. Keep screwing around and there will be consequences ala Rich Lavoy. There will be a mob of fellow AWA pilots wanting to join in as plaintiffs. But after the information coming out from Mowrey and Garland, it certainly appears that the end game is near for the East antics. Junebug has been right all along. The seeds of this “tortured logic†arbitration decision were sewn in 1991 by a decision to strip date-of-hire from ALPA merger policy. Two large ALPA pilot groups, fearful of merging with a more senior pilot workforce at TWA, lead the initiative and substituted an incomprehensible list of “goals†in its place. "Incomprehensible" is a matter of opinion. For the rest of the piloting profession the list of goals are quite clear.

USAPA has determined that seniority is a self-defining term. True statement. Accordingly, the USAPA Constitution requires the merging of seniority lists by “date-of-hire†and no other methodology. That's fine too. Just understand that your requirement applies prospectively. If Lee is telling you that you can rewrite that which is not rewritable, then you'd better get another attorney. Somehow, though, I suspect he told you the correct rule - that whatever you do you cannot undo Nic - and therefore you can do nothing which repudiates Nic or operates to change Nic. I guess you just want to keep that little tidbit quiet and then deal with it later. Wow, you guys are already starting to act like ALPA National!

USAPA has received more than 2300 requests from both east and west US Airways pilots to request a representation election from the National Mediation Board. OK. Election request documents continue to arrive. Good. A request count of 50% of eligible pilots, plus one, is required for an election to be held. True Statement. During the follow-on election a simple majority of voting pilots will determine the new collective bargaining agent. True Statement. USAPA anticipates that it will begin representing the US Airways pilots in the first quarter of 2008. Hmmm. That's where you step into the alligator pond. You see, another little skeleton in the USAPA closet (even though your house hasn't even been built) is that you need to fairly represent all pilots. Now I've heard the Chipster's ruminations on how difficult it would be for the West to prove a DFR, but there are several problems with the idea that the West would be stuck with a cram down. First, USAPA is a successor in interest as the bargaining agent for the US Airways pilots. That means USAPA inherits the obligations of the former bargaining agent and we know quite well what those obligations are - they're contract obligations signed by your very own pilots to adhere to a process identified as the ALPA merger policy. Where a lot of you Easties stop short is your belief that the title of the document controls substantive rights and obligations. Au contraire. The naming of the document is merely to reference the contents because it's the contents which are what bind you, not the d@mn name. If you'd like, I'll cite the case law spelling that exact rule out. So what you need to understand is that it's the contents which spell out rights, obligations, and expectations which travel from ALPA to USAPA. The reason? Because down at the bottom of that document are the signatures of your bargaining agents. Therefore, you were bound then, you are bound now, and you will be bound until you have completed performance on that contract. End of story.

USAPA is the new union designed to represent the interests of US Airways Pilots and no other. That's fine, so long as you honor your obligations. This new union has been designed “from the pilot up,†to deliver competent, accountable, responsive and efficient representation for the US Airways pilots. Fine, just make sure that you're getting competent legal advice and that you follow that advice, otherwise it will get extremely ugly very quickly for you. Because USAPA represents only US Airways pilots, the conflicts of interest associated with a large national association will be avoided. USAPA notes that the best-compensated pilots in the domestic passenger transport business, AirTran, Southwest and American, are all represented by company-specific unions. Now we've finally reached a sensible argument/observation. It only took a thousand words to get to it! The American pilots, represented by the Allied Pilots Association, were previously affiliated with ALPA and were assisted in their departure from the association by the same law firm assisting the US Airways pilots today.