AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[aquagreen73s]

Fences, money or hell on earth, take your pick. Catch 22 situation here.

aquagreen: I'll take money and no fences for a thousand Alex.

Trebek: A Daily Double.

aquagreen: Hmmm....I'll bet all of it Alex.

Trebek: Ahh...a true Daily Double. You're a brave man aquagreen.

aquagreen: Thank you Alex.

Trebek: Answer - From 2005 through 2007, this pilot group successfully withstood threats and intimidation of mass annhilation by another group of pilots that was superior in numbers yet deficient in collective common sense.

aquagreen: What are the America West pilots.

Trebek: Yes and you are correct aquagreen for a true daily double.

 

[USA320Pilot]

If USAPA is not going to represent all of the new US Airways pilots then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

If the Nicolau Award implementation is such a "slam dunk" then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[nostradamus]

"The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.â€￾

James Arthur Baldwin quote

 

[700UW]

Did he not say the same thing?
2. A NMB request count of 50% of eligible US Airways-AWA pilots, plus one, is required for an election to be held. However, during the follow-on election a simple majority of voting pilots will determine the new collective bargaining agent.

Having IAM vs AMFA flashbacks?

It is not a majority vote on the election, it is still 50%+1 in order to remain unionized.

 

[Junebug172]

If USAPA is not going to represent all of the new US Airways pilots then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

If the Nicolau Award implementation is such a "slam dunk" then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

We're not emotional. A bit frustrated as to why the list wasn't presented right away, but now that that's going to happen very soon, even that's melting away.


Speaking of emotions, have you attended any of your MEC meetings lately?

 

[767jetz]

But the underlying principle, what is right, fair and equitable is and should always have remained - DOH.

That is simply your opinion, and not one that is shared by a majority of ALPA pilots.

 

[AWA320]

If USAPA is not going to represent all of the new US Airways pilots then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

If the Nicolau Award implementation is such a "slam dunk" then why are the former AWA pilots so emotional?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

No one over here is emotional we just seem to enjoying yanking your leashes!! You don't stand a chance in hell of getting out of the arbitrated award new union or old and you know it!!

 

[767jetz]

but if the AWA MEC is unwilling to negotiate a “realistic solutionâ€￾ to the Nicolau Award that both the East and West pilots can support, then I believe there is no other option except to support USAPA.

USA320Pilot

You keep talking about "realistic solutions" but the problem is that your idea of realistic is very different from other people's idea of realistic. It is a very subjective position and subject to interpretation, just like the whole mediation and arbitration process. In the end it was already decided that your version of "realistic" was actually unrealistic, and the arbitrator ruled against you with the help of two neutrals. The process of negotiating has already occurred and most people believe the Nicolau award, while not perfect for anyone, IS the realistic solution.

You have been quoting the Rice Committee for many weeks now, claiming that they would make everything right and would even negotiate for the West in their absence, to come up with solutions more in line with the Easts demands. At that point it was suggested by me and others that the real meaning behind the RC's words was that negotiations would lead to protections for East attrition, significant pay and benefit increases, and address other concerns without reordering the list. It was also suggested that the EC could actually be warning the East that they will negotiate on behalf of the EAST in THEIR absence. In light of recent communications it appears that is exactly the direction the Rice Committee is going.

IMO it would be best for you and the East to come off your DOH/LOS position and comply with the RC suggestions before you lose the opportunity to capture the significant quality of life improvements that are available through the JNC. Failing to do so would appear to many as yet another example of the East agreeing to a process (this time submitting to the Rice Committee to come up with realistic solutions) only to turn their back when that process leads to a solution the East is not happy with.

You and I have discussed the idea of trying to see and understand the point of view of others, and realize that there might be a productive path that does not happen exactly on your terms or at your will. IMO, if you choose never to yield, then you choose to isolate yourself, and eventually things will start to happen without your participation. The idea of avoiding Nicolau through USAPA is a long shot at best. And despite what you post here (and I understand why you do), I think you know it. I believe in the end you prefer to keep ALPA, but are trying to persuade (dare I say scare) the West and the EC to submit to the way you want things to be. I don't think it is working. In reality I believe the East holds the key to moving things in a more positive way, that would benefit the greatest number of pilots, and end the stalemate. But it would require a more reasonable stance and would not reorder the list.

Whatever happens, I think we are approaching the end game and the cards will fall where they may very soon.

767jetz

 

[aquagreen73s]

Jetz...yet another logical post from you. We on the West do appreciate your taking the time to weigh in. Busdrvr seems to have taken some time off, but I do want to thank ALL of the UAL pilots that I have spoken with since the announcement of the "merger" (buyout, really). EVERY UAL pilot has been very supportive of the West and we do appreciate your support. Hopefully this sectarian jihad will be over soon and then the pilots off LCC can set the bar for the rest of the pilots in this profession.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Wrong, it is not a simple majority for a win during a union election.

It is still 50%+1 of all ELIGBLE voters in order to win.

Once again, DONT LET THE FACTS GET IN YOUR WAY!

Once again, it takes 50%+1 of ALL ELIGIBLE PILOTS to mail a card in. If the cards stand up to the expected challenges and are proven true, the NMB will call for an election.

You must have 50%+1 of all eligible pilots cast a ballot. The winner of the dercert is simple majority. 50%+1 of the votes cast. Repeat, 50%+1 of all eligible pilots must cast a ballot to elect or re-elect a bargaining rep.

Finally, If LESS than 50%+1 of all eligible pilots cast a vote, you will have decertification and NO union representation. Check out the NMB website link that BoeingBoy posted on one of the closed threads addressing this subject.

I have said this multiple times on different threads. It is easier to decertify ALPA than it is to get an election. Think about it.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug & AWA320,

It is my understanding you are in for some big surprises in the not-to-distant future and John Prater just told a colleague of mine that his goal is to get both sides to the table and if they didnt work together to "let them stew in their juices".

Furthermore, USAPA now has about 2,400 cards. On September 17 the next furlough recall class will commence and USAPA will know from sources at the CLT Training Center exactly who will return to the company and who will not. The last furlough recall class will be held in a couple of weeks and then USAPA will know exactly which representational cards are valid and which ones would be voided.

When the number of cards is compared to the combined seniority list (with an exact/certified US Airways - AWA pilot list obtained from George Nicolau's Award), USAPA will know exactly how many cards are necessary to to have the NMB order an election. Therefore, the Company's recall timing is perfect and welcome news to USAPA''s Officer's.

By the way, if you would like to print an authoirization card click here.

By the way, I'm sure you're wondering if electing a new bargaining agent enhance our ability to redress the inequities of the Nicolau award?

Well, I understand the Nicolau Award is the product of an ALPA-mandated process and ALPA is bound to defend that process. The ALPA-US Airways MEC cannot prevail in its current litigation because it voluntarily submitted to the ALPA-mandated process. The USAPA, however, is not bound by ALPA's Constitution and cannot be subjected to ALPA’s political control. USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

By the way, did you see this letter?

I know, I know, you're going to threaten a DFR lawsuit and I say go ahead. As you know Lee Seham indicated believes your new/pending union, USAPA, has a federally protected right under the RLA to change union representatives. A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

Finally, I understand USAP nees 50% +1 of the total pilot voting population to force an election. The NMB will determine the pool of eligible pilot-voters from which this number is derived. This number includes, all active pilots East and West, furloughed pilots not working for another airline, pilots on medical leave and LOA or military leave. The MDA pilots and J4J pilots may or may not be included, that will be determined by the NMB - therefore it is critical that MDA and J4J pilots submit Authorization Cards.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I'll take the money option, and lots of it.

I'll take the benefits option and retirement medical.

Now you see the problem? Thats the way its been around the east for 20+ years. Hence the lack of unity. One side for pay, another for benefits and others for all combinations in-between. You now have an older pilot group staring at retirement. Do you plan on keeping retirees near poverty?

 

[ClueByFour]

USAPA will assert its right under the Railway Labor Act to negotiate over the terms of any seniority integration. Under the RLA, seniority is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

Bzzt. USAPA gets to inherit all of the contracts and agreements that ALPA was overseeing. That includes the transition agreement. Reread it, and report back once the obvious dawns.

A successor union, such as the USAPA, has the legal right to negotiate changes in the terms and conditions of employment, including seniority. Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

See above about "all contracts of the predecessor." With the transition agreement alone the west is in fine shape--they don't need a DFR lawsuit to get a court to enjoin USAPA on sections 1B and 3C is basically the end of the world. You will also note that despite everything else, the NMB has not made a single carrier/class/craft ruling yet.

Ergo, you either get ALPA merger policy anyway (and the list will be submitted to the company long before USAPA is hypothetically certified by the NMB to represent either side), the NMB does not rule single carrier because they smell the bovine fecal matter in the air, or (worst case) the westies simply convince a judge that 1B means that they have to ratify (independently) any joint agreement.

What's funny is that most, not all, but most of the west guys are content to simply sit back and watch this play out, because their advisers apparently understood reality from the beginning.

After Katz, will the East pilots put Seeham out to pasture? Technically, Seeham has probably not lied to anyone--USAPA might actually be free to negotiate on seniority. If the company will waive the troublesome parts of the transition agreement AND a court does not put a stop to the whole charade. Is F. Lee Bailey next on the list?

 

[767jetz]

Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

There's that word again. The question is, whose idea of reasonableness are we talking about? From your posts it seems that your assumption is that your view and that of the East MEC is the reasonable one end everyone else is wrong. However when you look at the track record of everyone you (the East) have gone to with your collective version of what's reasonable, (ie: the arbitrator, the EC, the RC, even management) the response you have gotten is that you guys are the ones who are not reasonable. What would make you believe a federal court would be any different?

 

[Bear96]

Federal courts have routinely upheld a union’s right to address seniority issues within a wide range of reasonableness.

BINGO!

Quite an interesting statement coming from you. It is also interesting that you didn't make this point in the immediate aftermath of the Nicolau arbitration. (The law did not change between now and then. This is something many here have been trying to tell you for months.)

The above quote is the essence of why the Nicolau award will ultimately stand. The way the East/West integration was carried out will undoubtedly fall within this "wide range of reasonableness." And in future mergers, if USAPA is successful in the threatened election, USAPA will be given wide discretion in determining seniority.

Now take it one step further: because what is done is done, any new union on the property will in all likelihood be bound by the Nicolau arbitration, the same as it will be bound by the CBA that ALPA agreed to before the change in unions.

Glad to see you're finally coming around, USA320!